A History of Like

Carrie and Megan talk with Megan C. Reynolds, Dwell magazine editor, about her  book, Like: A History of the World's Most Hated (and Misunderstood) Word.

• Putin and Russian

Chapters

• 7:33 Interview with Megan

Transcript

[intro music]

Megan Megan Figueroa: Hi, welcome to the Vocal Fries podcast, the podcast about linguistic discrimination. 

Carrie Gillon: I'm Carrie Gillon.

Megan Figueroa: And I'm Megan Figueroa. How are you doing, Carrie?

Carrie: Pretty good [crosstalk] nice. 

Megan Figueroa: [inaudible].

Carrie: Yeah, it's a nice sunny day here. We had some torrential rains this week. This feels like summer, finally, again.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. I would like some torrential rain here [inaudible]. The cacti out in the front of my yard are just drooping. They need water so badly. It's been a sad monsoon season so far. Poor cacti. 

Carrie: Poor little guys.

Megan Figueroa: I know. They're so sensitive.

Carrie: They truly are. Yeah. So today, I thought maybe we would talk about Putin.

Megan Figueroa: Why not? 

Carrie: Apparently, he has turned to linguistics like dictators before him.

Megan Figueroa: What does that mean? I'm excited. I don't know what it means. Tell me. 

Carrie: Just before we get into that, this is something sent to us by one of our patrons, Diego Diaz.

Megan Figueroa: Thank you, Diego.

Carrie: Yeah, so this is a reminder: if you'd like to support us, you can do so at www.patreon.com/vocalfriespod. We have stickers, we have mugs, we have bonus episodes.

Megan Figueroa: So many bonus episodes.

Carrie: We have 90 bonus episodes. [inaudible].

Megan Figueroa: Are we there yet?

Carrie: Yeah. According to this, which is the Eurasia Review, Putin has made knowledge and use of the Russian language central to his understanding of Russian identity, and it's a key element in his foreign policy as well. This makes sense. Part of the reason why he thinks it's okay to attack Ukraine is because he's like, "They're Russian speakers," even though not all of them are. Even if they were, this still doesn't give him the right.

Megan Figueroa: No, absolutely not. I can see what they mean now by dictators before him. They have made language as part of their national identity.

Carrie: Yes, so Mussolini promoted Italian language because he obviously thought it was important in its own right, because it's the language that he spoke, and it's the main major language of Italy. Not the only one, but the major one. But he also tried to link it to the glories of the Roman Empire.

Megan Figueroa: Oh, weird.

Carrie: Well, not so weird. Where's Rome, right? 

Megan Figueroa: Makes sense. It does make sense, but I mean okay. 

Carrie: This is something I do not know. I really should know more about Marxism/Leninism. I should. But apparently, some interpretations of Marxism-Leninism suggest that Russia would just go away, like it would die out over time. I meant Russian there, not Russia. I don't understand why they would think that, but I guess that was part of the reason why Stalin was wanting to protect Russia so much is because of that interpretation. I don't know.

Megan Figueroa: And then, of course, we have the other modern-day example of Trump promoting English. Talking about dictators here.

Carrie: Yeah. 100% dictator at this point, not even a question. Shit's bad.

Megan Figueroa: It's bad. It's really bad.

Carrie: Okay. So, I guess at one point, Russia was supposed to work non-Russian languages, but that work is very slow, and probably that was on purpose. Because why would he care? But there's many languages spoken in Russia. Apparently, he's paranoid that if people in Russia, within the borders of Russia, are not fluent in Russian, then there could be further disintegration of the country as a whole. So, Russia's already shrunk because Ukraine and a bunch of other Baltic states left. I guess he's right that there is a chance that other parts of it would want to have independence from Russia over time. And so, I think I get where he's coming from, even if I don't think it's a good idea.

Megan Figueroa: No, it makes sense to me. I feel like bigots or very nationalistic people don't like other languages to be spoken. It makes them uncomfortable. I don't know. I think it makes them uncomfortable for several reasons. But one of them tie back to it not being very patriotic.

Carrie: Not patriotic, but also worse than that, a threat to the country because they have a different identity. So they could leave the country. Russia has shrunk, it literally has. The USSR was much bigger. It's not a wild thing to be afraid of in his case.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. 

Carrie: Bam. Now, on the other side, if you're a speaker of a different language within Russia, you might be afraid that if you stop speaking your language, you're no longer going to have the right to separate. You're going to just be absorbed by the larger Russian whole. So there's definitely a pushback on this from other parts of the country that at least want to keep their options open. And it could, according to this, set the stage for increased ethnic conflict.

Megan Figueroa: I can see that.

Carrie: Yeah. I definitely can see that. So, I don't know. Russia feels very fragile. It's felt fragile for a long time, but I don't know. Right now, it feels extra fragile. If that's the case, then Putin's going to be acting even more erratically.

Megan Figueroa: Oh, absolutely. Isn't he ramping up the drone attacks on Ukraine right now? He's a loose cannon. It's terrible.

Carrie: It is terrible. It is really scary. I hope that things change because Putin scares me. He's scared me for a long time, but he is scaring me now.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. He is scary. The world is scary right now, for sure, and he's a big part of it.

Carrie: Yeah. He's one of the major players in terms of, like, destabilizing things. 

Megan Figueroa: The entire world. Yeah.

Carrie: So today we have another episode on the word like.

Megan Figueroa: Yes. Always relevant.

Carrie: It's always relevant. There's always more to say.

Megan Figueroa: Yes, absolutely. So, I hope you enjoy.

Carrie: Okay. So, Megan C. Reynolds is an editor at Dwell Magazine and previously worked at the now-defunct Jezebel and The Billfold. She's written for BuzzFeed, The New York Times, Elle, Gawker, Bustle, Vulture, and other outlets. Megan was also the co-host of the short-lived, celebrity gossip-focused podcast DirtCast. She lives in New York City. And we have her on today to talk about her newest book, 'Like: A History of the World's Most Hated (and Misunderstood) Word.' So, welcome.

Megan Figueroa: Welcome.

Megan C. Reynolds: Thank you. I almost said "welcome back" because I've hosted a podcast before, and just listening to all that, I was like, "Ah, yes, I know this." Thank you for having me.
So, welcome to your podcast.

Megan Figueroa: Thank you. No one's ever welcomed us. That feels good.

Carrie: That's true. 

Megan Reynolds: Welcome to your podcast, and thank you for having me.

Carrie: Yeah, I'm really interested about DirtCast. I hadn't heard about it before. So, [crosstalk].

Megan Figueroa: So, that's a great title.

Carrie: It is a great title.

Megan Reynolds: It was like a Jezebel podcast that lasted for, I don't know, a year probably, and changed before. I was managing editor at the same time I was doing it, and I was like, "I can't. I'm so sorry. This is like five jobs for one person."

Megan Figueroa: Seriously.

Megan Reynolds: It was fun. I enjoyed it.

Carrie: So, we always begin with our first question whenever we have a guest on who has a book: Why did you want to write this book, and why now?

Megan Reynolds: So, the idea for the book came to me via my editor, actually. The idea came to me, it was presented to me, obviously, and I thought that's interesting. This is something I probably think about a lot, but don’t consciously think about. I think we all think about how we talk all the time, in good ways and bad. So, to be frank, my first reaction when I heard the idea was like, "Oh, that’s easy. I can do that. Seems fine. What else am I doing this year? Let me just write a fucking book." Here's the thing: it wasn’t easy. But once the idea came around, I sat down, I thought about it, and I was like, "You know what?" The one thing that I hope people take away from the book, and that I tried to put in there, is that it’s less about the word and more about communication and how we connect with each other, and how it is increasingly difficult to be able to communicate with anyone effectively. Just because after the pandemic, I feel like everyone was an indoor cat for so long that once you exited back, it was like, “Oh, fuck. Oh God. What are we doing here?” And figuring that, seeing how that manifested in my own life, but then also how that could manifest for other people, was part of the reason that I took the approach that I did with the book. And I think it worked out. Worked out for me, I think. I feel good about it, which is nice.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s good.

Megan Figueroa: It was really engaging, the way you wrote it. When people tell us it feels like they’re our friends because they listen to us so much on the podcast, it felt like that with a book.

Megan Reynolds: That’s really good. I’m excited to hear that from people that don’t know me. That is reassuring. Great. Okay. Sick. Amazing.

Megan Figueroa: You really reeled me in with all the pop culture references. It was so helpful to me. 

Megan Reynolds: Good.

Megan Figueroa: And I’m a linguist, so I didn’t need help to care.

Megan Reynolds: Okay, fabulous, because I’m not. So that was evident, I think. It’s fine. It was evident. But yes, it’s not what I do for a job.

Megan Figueroa: Well, you talked to some great linguists.

Carrie: Exactly.

Megan Reynolds: I did. 

Megan Figueroa: Dr. Darcy. 

Megan Reynolds: She was fabulous. She was really great. I found the best of the best, I think. I hope.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, and can I just say, it’s just one line in your book, but you called out The New York Times for letting John McWhorter just fucking talk about whatever the hell he wants.

Megan Reynolds: Just run his mouth for no reason. I know. I was only ambiently familiar with him just from reading the newspaper occasionally. And so when I was doing research for the proposal to put together the comps for the book, I came across his stuff, and I was like, "Who is this man? This man seems like a pain in the ass." And I read one of his books for the book, and I was like, "This man is a pain in the ass, but he does have some things that I need. There’s some information in here that I require. So, thank you, sir. But otherwise, you seem like a dick. What’s wrong with you?"

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, 100%. Good eye. 

Megan Reynolds: Glad I figured that one out.

Carrie: Yeah, he can be quite charming in person, unfortunately.

Megan Reynolds: Most people who are dicks are charming in person.

Carrie: Yeah, I guess that’s true. 

Megan Reynolds: That’s how they get to be a dick.

Carrie: Yeah, that’s true.

Megan Reynolds: That’s part of the package deal. I’m glad that that tickled somebody.

Megan Figueroa: Yes, I know. It’s just one line, but I was like, “Ha-ha.”

Carrie: We’ve had our own issues with the McWhorter on this podcast, though.

Megan Reynolds: He doesn’t seem to be someone who strives to do work that doesn’t cause issues. You know what I mean?

Carrie: Yeah, that’s true. 

Megan Reynolds: Like a little bit of a shit-stir, like a poking-the-bear situation. Bro, we have so many other things to worry about right now.

Carrie: It’s true.

Megan Reynolds: Literally, a war has just begun. Things are bad.

Carrie: Yeah, I know. It’s bad.

Megan Reynolds: Anyway.

Megan Figueroa: Anyway. So, can you tell us a little bit about the history of the word 'like'?

Megan Reynolds: Sure. The word has been around for a long-ass time. The way that we use it, except the accepted ways of using it, as a noun, as a verb: those were not the ways that I was going to cover in the book because what’s most interesting about it are the bad ways. Usually, like's preponderance in the culture and speech is blamed on the Valley Girls. They did say it. That’s not not true. But in the way that it’s been said, that I talk about in the book, that people are upset about, has been around since the 1600s. There are deep records of it in court records from the UK in the 1600s, where people are saying, like I have said nine million times since we’ve been talking in the past 5 minutes. That was it. It’s been in there. It’s been around for longer than you think. And so, I think you do a disservice to the word and what it can do if you’re just like, “Oh, it’s because of some dumb teenage girls in the ‘80s.” There’s so much more to it. I think that from the 1600s up until right now, here we are. But it’s been around for a while.

Carrie: So, what are some of the ways that 'like' functions linguistically? And how have these functions changed over time?

Megan Reynolds: The way that I find to be the most exciting is the quotative. The quotative is my favorite use of the word. And the quotative, once you understand what it is, it will make complete sense to you. It’s instead of saying, “I said, ‘My cat was a pain in the ass,'" I said, “I was like, ‘My cat was a pain in the ass.'" And what that does is gives the speaker an opportunity to share with their conversation partner how they feel about the thing in question, about the thing that's happening, about whatever you're saying. It also allows for nuance in a way that I think is interesting to think about, because it allows you to share just a sliver of your emotional state. And this is a calculation that I don't think occurs very consciously. It's imperceptible at this point, because I hope that people aren't thinking about what they're saying all the time, like, this much on this granular of a level. This is just part of being a good communicator, or someone who knows how to use their words appropriately. So that's one, that's my favorite because it's the one that I probably use the most. I think it's the one that most people use the most. When I figured that out, when that clicked for me when I was writing the book, I was like, "Oh, this is a whole world has opened up to me. This is very interesting." So there's the quotative. 'Like' is also often used as a hedge in conversation, in sentences. That one, I think, is also really good because it buys you time. 

There is nothing I want more but more time to be able to get my shit together so I can say a sentence and have it sound coherent, and I know what I’m talking about. That is often difficult for me. But being able to just lean on a little tool that lets you gather your thoughts as you’re trying to say your thoughts is amazing. It’s also nice for the other person you’re talking to, who can hear these little verbal pauses or whatever. And, you know that, "More things are coming.
You're not done talking. I guess I’ll listen to you. I guess what you’re about to say seems important because you’re very hesitant to say it." And the hesitancy, which is aided by 'like' and other filler words, the hesitancy, I don’t think speaks to a lack of confidence or something like that. It can be, sure, but I do think it speaks more to care, to being considerate about what you’re going to say. Because if you’re going to say something really hard or really important to somebody; I did 43 years on this earth, I’ve not found a way to say what the fuck I need to say without stopping and starting 25 times in a sentence. And so if there’s a word that will let me do that instead of dead air, then sick. That’s great. That’s perfect. Those are my two favorite uses of the word that are not the standard ones. And then I think the third one that I use the most is 'like' an approximator of value, or not value, of quantity of things. I think that’s the most fun, because that lends itself well to hyperbole and just being a little fun with it. Besides the fun, it conveys more information about something, about a situation, about a thing, about whatever.

If I say, “I have, like, 900 pieces of clothing to put away,” I don’t own 900 pieces of clothing, period, across the board. But one would surmise that it just means I have a shitload of laundry that I haven’t actually dealt with. It’s more fun to say, “I have, like, 900 pieces of clothing to put away,” than just, like, “I have to put away my laundry.” And I think it’s nice to have fun. So much shit is so unfun that why not find the pockets of fun where we can? 

Megan Figueroa: [inaudible]. I know.

Megan Reynolds: That’s how I feel about that. Right now it’s, 'like', a thousand degrees outside.

Megan Figueroa: Honestly, it feels close to that. I cannot tell a lie. My air conditioner is on, and I’m sweating.
It’s fine.

Carrie: You’re going to kill me, but my heat is on right now.

Megan Reynolds: Where are you?

Carrie: I’m in Vancouver, Canada.

Megan Reynolds: Is it that cold in Vancouver at this moment in time?

Carrie: It’s colder than it should be.

Megan Reynolds: That does seem [crosstalk] at the end of July. June does seem troublesome.

Carrie: It’s weirdly cold. Sometimes June is called “Junuary” here because it’s as rainy as January. But it’s still unusually cold.

Megan Reynolds: I lived in San Francisco for 4 years, and that weather was like, "Are you fucking, what is this?"

Carrie: Oh yeah. It’s always misty in the morning. Doesn’t matter what time of year

Megan Reynolds: Wearing a sweatshirt on the Fourth of July was against everything I know as a human being. I left San Francisco after 4 years, that was part of it. But I was like, “I can’t. I should not be cold.” And now this is what I get.

Carrie: Yes, exactly.

Megan Figueroa: Sweating on your living room floor.

Megan Reynolds: Sitting on my living room floor, sweating, because this is exactly what I get.

Megan Figueroa: When you were talking about the functions of 'like', I was thinking about the one where you use it to hold the floor. I think that one — it’s so important, because there are so many people [crosstalk] that just want to jump in, right?

Megan Reynolds: [inaudible]. Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Like I just said now, you kind of know I'm still going to say something. So you're like, "Something's still coming." I think that I'm not saying all men, but a lot of men ignore that when it's women using it.

Megan Reynolds: I will say, yes. I think men, it's not that I don't think they hear these things, their ears work. Their ears work for sure. Absolutely, do they work. But it is interesting to be in a conversation with a man, in any sort of situation, and to be doing whatever it is that you're doing, speaking in however the way, whatever way you speak: taking pauses, using whatever other words. The silence, or a pause, or hesitation doesn't necessarily always need to be filled. Because if you're paying attention to the other person that you're talking to, you're probably like, "Oh, they're about to say something else. Okay. I will let them finish their thought." However, I have found in my experience as a human being that very often men are indeed eager to just barrel right in there and just get in there, just in case. They hard to wait your turn, I suppose. But, like, "Is it wait my turn all the time?" I don't like it.

Megan Figueroa: We do it all the time as women.

Megan Reynolds: It's not one of my favorite activities, for sure, but I do it.

Megan Figueroa: We do it. Yeah.

Megan Reynolds: So it stands to reason that other people could as well. No?

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. It's funny because now I'm thinking about all the times I say 'like', because we are talking to you right now. But it's interesting because we're called The Vocal Fries. And so, we haven't gotten any shit from reviews that say, "Oh, they have terrible vocal fry." I think we're safe because our show is called The Vocal Fry. So they attack us on other things.

Megan Reynolds: Yeah. You, like, get it out there out front. Exactly.

Megan Figueroa: But I don't think, Carrie, we've ever been called out for really the way we talk. I think people [crosstalk] we're a little bit safeguarded. Or have you noticed?

Megan Reynolds: [inaudible] you've said.

Carrie: Yeah, I think we have protected ourselves by naming ourselves that. But we did get called "the Wonder Bread for the mind," which I do think speaks to them calling us not intellectual.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, that's true.

Megan Reynolds: Oh God. And what's your point?

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, exactly. 

Megan Reynolds: There's no issue. I see no issue here. But the comments, I guess, the reviewer, the reviews, or whatever you don't ever get clocked for the words, saying 'like', or saying other filler words, or whatever else?

Megan Figueroa: No, but I know other women do.

Carrie: [inaudible] everybody. 

Megan Reynolds: Everyone I talked to for the book, all of my other friends who do public speaking or do public-facing things for work, have all heard comments about it, or if they do a podcast or whatever else. Like Bobby and Lindsay from the book, from 'Who? Weekly', have told me numerous times, even before I started writing this book, that whenever we’re talking about it as friends, they'll say that the comments about the way they talk usually come from when they’re on adult, grown-up podcasts or whatever. Like, something slightly more buttoned-up. If they’re a guest on someone else's podcast, no one gives a shit. But if they're doing a little NPR segment, it's going to be 10 boomers who have somehow accessed the keyboard on their telephone to be like, "[inaudible]." It is like, "Guys, you boomers, God bless." I love boomers in my life, but it's okay, guys. Everybody can relax. Nothing is happening. The bad things are happening outside of the words that we're saying.

Carrie: Exactly. 

Megan Reynolds: So if you don't want to focus on the bad things and you only want to focus on this, sure, I get it. But also stop, please. 

Carrie: I know my dad was in radio, and he would get weird comments too, but nothing about the way he sounded or anything. People have really weird ideas about language. The one that sticks out in my brain is he would say, "It's zero degrees right now," which is freezing in Celsius.

Megan Reynolds: Okay. Thank you.

Carrie: And the person would write in and say, "It's supposed to be 'zero degree' because zero is not singular."

Megan Reynolds: Oh my fucking God.

Carrie: It's not plural, it's singular. So it should be "degree." And it's like, "No, actually, singular is actually singular, and you use plural for everything else, even zero," whatever. 

Megan Reynolds: That's the kind of stuff that would drive me to insanity.

Carrie: Well, my dad asked me, I think I was in grad school at the time from level six, and so he asked me, "Is this right?" He was just like, "What?"

Megan Reynolds: He's gaslighting himself for no reason.

Carrie: Exactly.

Megan Reynolds: I think the accidental gaslighting does happen a lot with language correctors, [inaudible] because you’ll be living your life, saying your words, doing whatever, and then if someone's like, "Well, that's actually wrong." And you're like, "No, I know that's not wrong, but who are you? Do you have some sort of authority? Oh fuck. Am I actually wrong?" The 10 minutes you wasted confirming that you were right in the first place, it's time you'll never get back.

Carrie: Exactly. And because it's mostly targeted towards women, women have all this extra time wasted on this shit.

Megan Reynolds: It's true. I don't like wasting my time. And so I need everyone to relax. That's my one ask. I need everyone to relax.

Megan Figueroa: But unfortunately, this is the one area everyone seems to have a comment to make about [crosstalk].

Megan Reynolds: It's crazy. It's crazy that it still happens. I don't know why I assumed. That seemed like something that would phase out. It doesn't happen to me very often, frankly, but many other people I know, it just seems like something that would phase out as you become an adult. Like in your twenties, be annoying to someone in their twenties. I'm annoying to people in my twenties if I find myself in the position to be, if I need to. I don't know, man, give it up. What are you doing. Go mow the lawn. Go do something else.

Carrie: Well, also, 'like' has been around for so long, like you were saying earlier.

Megan Reynolds: Totally.

Carrie: But even our conception of it as a Valley Girl thing, at least that's from the 80s. That's 40 years ago. Why are we still fixated on this?

Megan Reynolds: It sure is, baby. It's 40 years ago. The only thing is, people who were teenagers in the 80s are by now, math, old enough. They're old-ish.

Carrie: They're pretty old now.

Megan Reynolds: They're old-adjacent, but they've been in positions of power at work and stuff. And so one would assume that the way they were speaking when they were a teenager is probably close enough to the way they're speaking as an adult. So it's in the ether. So if you're putting it into the ether, you're the one who's responsible for it being in the ether. So then why are you up someone else's butt about it being a fucking problem? Not a problem. You did this in the first place.

Carrie: Yes. That's what's surprising to me, that 'like' in particular has held on for so long. It's something we pick on.

Megan Reynolds: It is crazy to me. It feels like an antiquated fight. It feels like a fight, a pointless op-ed subject circa the early 2000s. We shouldn't still be talking about it in the 2020s, except for my book. You should all just be reading my book, so I can tell you why all of your choices are fine. That's the goal there.

Carrie: It is a shame that your book is still relevant, but it is good.

Megan Reynolds: I know. When I heard the idea, I was like, "That is interesting. Is this actually something people are still fussed about?" I can't think of the last time anyone has ever told me to stop saying 'like' or stop. If anything, someone's going to tell me to stop saying other stuff. But it's not 'like'. You're right, the fact that it is still relevant now is like, "What are people doing?" Again, who has the time? This is always my question for people who take on these silly little quests to correct, make something fit to their notion of what is correct. I'm like, "Don't you have something else to do? Why are you spending your time like this? Your choices are wrong. I don't agree with them."

Megan Figueroa: I was on the local, the Phoenix NPR affiliate, talking about how Latinx is an okay thing to say.

Megan Reynolds: Interesting.

Megan Figueroa: I got a handwritten letter in the mail telling me how wrong I was.

Megan Reynolds: What?

Carrie: That is dedication.

Megan Reynolds: Interesting. I don't like that for you. It stresses me out. I don't love that for you. Was it long?

Megan Figueroa: It was long. It was a whole page, and it was in cursive.

Megan Reynolds: Vintage.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. It's vintage.

Megan Reynolds: The other problem, I guess, is that everybody thinks they're right, for the most part.
 It's the other thing, right?

Megan Figueroa: It's true.

Megan Reynolds: I think I'm right. Other people think I'm right. Sometimes those two rights intersect, and that's beautiful. And oftentimes, they do not. And then therein lies the problem. I think that therein lies the problem with this word. I feel like “dying” is the wrong word, a dwindling set of people, a generation if you will, that are slowly but surely being not put out to pasture, but they’re getting older. And a lot of the things that they grew up with and think about and thought about as younger people are no longer relevant or no longer an issue. So again, why? There’s so many other things to do. Go to the grocery store. I don’t know. Go to the post office. Do something. Go away. In a nice way, go away politely.

Megan Figueroa: Politely, yes. Go away politely.

Megan Reynolds: Yes. I'm begging you to just go over there. I will leave in those two seconds, and you’ll be over there. But it’s fine. I don’t have to hear it anymore. It’s amazing.

Megan Figueroa: Well, I think this goes into our next question really nicely. So, despite its historical depth and linguistic versatility, how did 'like' become a target for so much hate?


Megan Reynolds: Unfortunately, and also unsurprisingly, the answer to that question is: women. It is because it has been associated with young girls for at least 40 years, as we've discussed.
This is a generalization, but I do think it is true enough that women are, I don’t know why I'm saying this as if it's a revelation, often overlooked. And the way that they speak is not considered proper or as important, necessarily. I could say something, and then a man I work with could say something; this is hypothetical. We could be saying it in the same way, and yet I wonder whose thing would be prioritized. The association with teen girls and women is the reason that we are still getting up in arms about this as an issue, as a problem, when it is clearly not. But also, something else that I cover is that teen girls and women are the drivers of linguistic change and innovation. Partially because no one’s paying attention to what they're doing, because you're like, “This isn’t important. Makeup, go over there. Who cares?" So they're just living their lives, learning new ways of speaking from the internet or their peers or from wherever else one listens to other people talk. And so they're learning, they're disseminating different ways of speaking by just existing. Eventually, the men catch up and are like, “Okay, I guess this is how we talk now. Cool.” And then the older people, they’re never going to be happy with this, so you can’t really do much there. But the reason it's so prevalent is because of women, and the reason people are so upset about it is because of women, which is a real pickle. Real pain in the ass, that one. I think that’s just the simplest answer.

Megan Figueroa: And the truest. It’s true.

Megan Reynolds: And also the truth. Simple and true.

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. You talk about this in the book, too: what do people try to say about intelligence when it comes to "like"?

Megan Reynolds: Intelligence: That saying "like" a lot is a sign of a lack of intelligence, which is actually incorrect. Because, first of all, my God, how could you make a decision about someone’s intelligence based on a five-minute conversation? Whatever. Bad practice. Don’t do that. But it has nothing to do with intelligence because, actually, it is a sign of a deeper emotional intelligence, which I think is very important to any kind of communication. I don’t know, you have to talk to different people differently, and it doesn’t have to be drastically differently. But you do talk to different people differently. And so part of that calculation, no matter how small it happens on the inside, is literally how you're going to say a thing. So it’s not unintelligent at all. It’s actually very smart. Because if you are tailoring the way you speak to one group of people versus another, it means that you are paying attention to who the fuck you're talking to and how it is you want to get your message across the best way possible. So you have to do whatever it is in your power to make whatever you're saying legible to someone else. That doesn't mean you're going to say the same thing in the same way to five different groups of people. If I'm talking to one of my friends about something stupid that happened, which is something I do all the time, I'm going to explain that differently than if the stupid thing that I was talking about found me in front of a police officer, for example. Has not happened. Parents, et cetera. I have not been arrested, not told you guys.

But if I were in that situation, I would probably not explain to the police officer as casually as I did to a friend. And that, in my mind, is like a modicum of intelligence. It’s at least you knowing your audience and understanding how to talk to them in order for them to hear you. That is one of those frustrating things, I think, in life: saying something a lot, saying words, and then not feeling heard. I think that can help you feel heard a little bit, because of all the really useful things that it does in conversation and language. So, using it is not a sign of unintelligence. It is, in fact, a sign that you are a considerate person who cares about what you're saying but also wants to make sure that your meaning is getting across. Correctly is wrong because you can only...

Megan Figueroa: ...Do so much. Yeah. 

Megan Reynolds: You’re in charge of the thing you say, and whatever the hell the other person makes of it is none of your business because you can’t do shit about it. That’s it. It’s all we can do.

Carrie: Yes. Because otherwise, I think we would be heard more often.

Megan Reynolds: Totally.

Carrie: And one of the things I think about a lot is how both parties are responsible for the communication. And if you choose not to understand, that's on you.

Megan Reynolds: That's on you, buddy. Exactly. A conversation is a two-person situation. And so everybody's participating. Everybody's involved. I tell you one thing, and you pretend not to listen. Interpret it in a way that is so clearly not what I fucking said, and all right. Godspeed. Yeah.

Megan Figueroa: Godspeed. 

Megan Reynolds: I said what I said. You heard what you wanted to hear, and never the twain shall meet. So I'm going to go once again. I'm going to go over here.

Megan Figueroa: So your time is no longer wasted.

Megan Reynolds: Yes, my time is precious. I have many things to do. I don't know what they are, but I'll think of them. And one of them is not engaging in this anymore. That's easy to me. Simple. More people should just do this.

Carrie: Yes. Agreed. It would solve a lot of problems if we just went, "You know what? I'm done." 

Megan Reynolds: Totally. I think one thing about communication, and this is a conversation I have with friends all the time, unfortunately often around like romantic issues, is like you have this idea that you can say one thing 25 different ways and that will somehow change the impact of how it lands on the other person, or that there's some different meaning if you switch a word. And I think a lot of this is also like a writerly impulse as well. I am very guilty of saying one sentiment 25 different ways and then having an editor be like, "You did say this three sentences ago." I'm like, "No, but there's like 900 different words in there." And they're like, "No, ma'am. Literally, you just said the same thing. So we're going to cut some of this." But I think that impulse exists, but it's also just not true. You can say something 10 ways from 10 different ways, and then the person is going to interpret it however they want to interpret it. That is something so out of your hands. It's so out of your hands. There's no point in even getting worked up about it. Even though I do. We do. Everybody.

Carrie: Yeah, of course. We are humans.

Megan Figueroa: Everyone does.

Megan Reynolds: Yeah. We all have feelings and thoughts and things, so that's fine. But it's good to try to remember you're only one person. You're only doing one thing. Everybody else's shit is their own shit. 

Carrie: Yes, exactly. So has our perception of the word "like" changed over time? 

Megan Reynolds: I'm hopeful it's becoming less of an issue. Like an actual op-ed, preachy, scoldy issue. Because again, at this point, it's been around for so long. And as we said, the Valley Girl situation was over 40 years ago. So all right, guys, let's give it a rest. I do think it's become less of an issue. My guess, I feel like the thing that is maybe replacing it a little bit in the discourse of like "don't say things in this way" is "literally," which I don't have a problem with a lot, to be upfront. But with people saying "literally", I don't care. Who cares, really? But I do think that maybe the eye of anger has shifted toward other things. So hopefully, at this point, we don't need to have a conversation about why this is bad. The conversation should be now about why this is useful, why this is good. Don't worry about it. Why are you beating yourself up for how you talk? Unless you're saying things that are obviously bad, offensive, et cetera, everything else is probably okay. That's on you as an adult person to figure out what's okay to say in here. And then what's okay to say out here. I can't help you with that. But don't rag on yourself for saying "like." Friends of mine still even will say to me, especially talking about the book, "Oh, I say it too much." I'm like, "Guys, why? Just read this. Okay? I can't tell you why. Just here, take this book. Get out of here. Come back to me when you're done. It's fine. You'll figure it out."

Megan Figueroa: Hopefully, at the end of that, they'll be like, "Okay, I'm not going to beat myself up about it anymore."

Megan Reynolds: There's no point in beating yourself. Again, why would you waste your time? You could be learning a new language. Be learning synchronized swimming. There's like 9 million other things you could be doing with all the time that you're wasting thinking about why you say certain words more than you say other words, unless they're legitimately bad words. I would like you to think about that so much, all the time. Please think about that constantly. Otherwise, don't fucking bother. What are you doing?

Carrie: I think it just shows that we're taught so much to care about what other people think about us.

Megan Reynolds: That's the other thing. That's one of the problems of being alive. Other people's opinions seem to really matter. I do think there are points in our development when other people's opinions do matter in a way that feels very life-threatening and consequential. Like being a teenager. Other people's opinions are either the most important thing or not the most important thing, but the most important thing still, even if you're saying, "Fuck, I don't care," you care so deep. You care on a cellular level that you need to spend years excavating out of.

Megan Figueroa: It's true. 

Megan Reynolds: And that's horrible. I never want to do that again. 

Carrie: And of course, we should care what other people think in terms of if we're being a bad person. I get that.

Megan Reynolds: Totally. Absolutely.

Carrie: But like being [inaudible] worrying about how we speak to pleaseother people?

Megan Reynolds: It's bonkers.

Carrie: Yes, it's bonkers. 

Megan Reynolds: Yes. I think this comes up for me, at least. I think the place in my life where I get the most in my head about it is in the workplace. Historically, all of my jobs have been pretty casual media and/or media-adjacent jobs. And those, I think, have different work cultures than one of my sisters, who is a lawyer, for example. She probably speaks to people that she works with much differently than I do. But the notion of professionalism, which I do touch on in the book, and about "like", and I think that is where my friends who do stuff like podcasts and whatever else, gets stuck in their head about, obviously, if you have to listen to yourself talk. Having done a podcast myself, I don't love to hear myself. Whatever, it's fine. Not my favorite thing to do. I'm fine with it. But that is a really good way to make you immediately take fucking tweezers to every single sentence you've ever said and lay it all out there and be like, "Well, shit. I'm inarticulate. What do I do?" It's not true. But in the workplace, I think that is where I get the most caught up on it. What you're getting now is also what most people are getting at my job or out in the world. It has never felt useful or necessary or important to me. Everyone has a customer voice. That's what I call my professional, like, if I need to be stern in an email, then I have my written customer voice. Otherwise, you're getting the same shit across the board. I don't think I've ever really thought that there's anything particularly wrong with that. 

I guess when my job started becoming more email-forward, then I was like, "Oh, interesting. What am I doing here? What are we trying to do with this?" And the answer is, "I'm not doing it. I'm doing nothing. I'm still saying the same. I'm still communicating what I need to communicate." And in fact, I think if I'm more casual in the situations that warrant it, but less so when I need to do the stern email, then hopefully the impact of me being a little whatever, then I hope that lands. Because it's like, "Oh, interesting. I'll listen to this." Don't listen to the other stuff if you want to. Again, all I'm doing is sending the email. It's your problem. What's down in my hands is your problem. But I do think professionalism doesn't necessarily mean speaking like a corporate robot. Across the board is the same shit as talking to your friends, talking to people outside in the world. You make these little tiny mental calculations based on the situation you're in, who you're talking to, and what it is you need to say. And then you say it in the way that you think is going to get your message across. So if that means saying "like" every other word because you're asking your favorite coworker a shady question about something that's happening at work, whatever. That's fine. You're not going to approach that as if you were writing a business letter, like they teach you in school when they teach you how to write letters. It's the wrong vibe. That's it. 

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. That's part of the whole emotional intelligence thing, too; switching between registers of the way we speak. Absolutely. 

Megan Reynolds: I think more people could use a dash of emotional intelligence. I'm not saying [inaudible].

Carrie: I don't think I'm all that emotionally intelligent either, but when people are worse than me, it's like so glaring.

Megan Reynolds: I know. I'm like, "What the fuck? I thought I was a mess." And I'm like, "But you, interesting". I'm actually pretty okay. I'm worried, but we don't need to do this interaction for that much longer. So good luck to you. Again, Godspeed. Your journey is your own.

Carrie: Do you have some examples of other filler words that are not as despised as "like"? 

Megan Reynolds: There's one. I don't find an "um" or an "uh" does not in any way, shape, or form register to me unless it's drawn out. And even then, I just assume it's part of the bit, like you're gearing up to something. So "um" and "uh," I think people say probably more than "like" because they are, I think those function, to me at least, more as a hard stop a little bit. Because a "like," you're going to say it, you're going to keep going. But an "um" or an "uh" is really like, "Something's going on." You're buffering still a little bit. "I mean" and "right" are two filler phrases, I suppose. And also "right," like tacking on a "right" at the end of a sentence. Those are things that I think I've noticed more. Those two are more contemporary, I guess, in a way. Like, more contemporary things for people to be annoyed about. But it doesn't seem like people are that upset about them because everybody's doing it. And also because I think using "you know" and "right" at the end of a sentence is a shorthand to communicate, not intelligence, but like, "How am I going to say this?" Not intelligence, but like, "Who does this a lot?" This is where it's good. This will hopefully explain it. Did you guys watch the Meghan Markle, Prince Harry thing that was on Netflix?

Carrie: Mm-mh.

Megan Figueroa: No.

Megan Reynolds: Okay. That's wonderful. That's good. It was her sit-down with Oprah. That's what [crosstalk].

Megan Figueroa: I watched some of that. I did.

Megan Reynolds: Okay. Wonderful. Thank you. It was her sit-down with Oprah. And so one thing that Meghan Markle did that I noticed when I was watching this, whenever that was, was that at the end of a sentence, she would say "right", and so, "Harry and I did blah blah blah, right?" And then keep going. And that, I think, is like a verbal tick that is meant to communicate: are you following me? Are you with me? But also to communicate some kind of, not knowledge, intelligence; you're positioning yourself on the "Am I making sense here?" I almost have it. I don't have the right word to say. Authority.

Carrie: Authority. Yeah.

Megan Reynolds: Fucking Christ. Authority. It's used to communicate some sort of authority in the conversation. And that to me is worse than any of the other regular filler words.

Carrie: I hate to say this, but it does bug me, too. And like Robert Evans from Behind the Bastards does it all the time, almost every sentence. "Right? Right?" And half the time, I wouldn't notice so often.

Megan Reynolds: Right. Because it's like, is the person you're saying this to supposed to be like, "Yes, of course you're right"? No. Because all you're doing is saying that. In my opinion, I've done it before.

Megan Figueroa: I do too.

Megan Reynolds: It's fine. That, to me, feels like something I would do in a professional setting, because it does communicate like, "Hello. I know what I'm talking about. You're following me, right?" But it feels a little smarmy. I think that's what it is. It's got a little sheen of kind of ill, like public intellectual pundit kind of vibe that I'm just like, "Okay." Again, go over there. Go over there for 5 to 10 minutes. That will give me enough time to get my bag on the train, because I don't need to be mansplained or anyone-splained something stupid that I probably already know. Those newer ones are honestly like I said, more prevalent, and I don't hear as much chatter around that being bad, when arguably I think it's much more disingenuous.

Carrie: At least it can be. 

Megan Reynolds: It can be. Not all the time. In these specific scenarios, I think it can be disingenuous, where I don't think that our old standard filler words are, because they're second nature at this point. If you're lecturing someone for no reason, there's going to be a lot of "rights" at the end of a sentence. There's going to be a lot of "you knows". I think it's trying to draw the person in a little bit, to be like, "Yes, we're here on the same level," but then also, like, "Are you following me? Because I'm saying a lot of really smart things." And it's like, "Are you [inaudible]? No, buddy." That's hard to say. I can't tell. But those are the ones that I think are still around, but no one is actually pissed about, unless there's an op-ed that I haven't read. Quite possibly. Someone is upset about these. I wouldn't be surprised.

Carrie: Oh, I'm sure there are some random people who are upset. But I don't think it's made it to mainstream.

Megan Reynolds: Right. Like, on a larger New York Times op-ed.

Carrie: Yes.

Megan Reynolds: We're not there. McWhorter doesn't seem to have a segment [crosstalk].

Megan Figueroa: Yeah, McWhorter doesn't seem to be pissed about it yet.

Megan Reynolds: He hasn't yet. He hasn't woken up. I think we'll get that from him in early 2026, probably, is when he'll be like, "Oh yes. Something else. Let me take to my typewriter. [inaudible] and then send this to my editor at The Times for them to be like, all right, cool." 

Carrie: Oh, McWhorter.

Megan Reynolds: I'm sure a broken clock is right twice a day, right? I'm sure that man says some stuff sometimes.

Carrie: No, he's not all wrong. He's not. It's just when he's wrong, it's spectacular. 

Megan Reynolds: It's like, Bro, you're [crosstalk]."

Megan Figueroa: [inaudible] listen. 

Megan Reynolds: That's the scary thing. I wonder, is that just because people don't know enough about stuff?

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. [inaudible] The New York Times.

Megan Reynolds: So it's got the sheen of authority.

Carrie: He's in The New York Times, and not that many linguists are famous. The ones that are famous [crosstalk] are not all bad, but mostly bad.

Megan Reynolds: Often bad. Are they bad because why? 

Carrie: Well, I don't know why they're bad, but they are bad in the sense that they're usually racist or sexist.

Megan Reynolds: Okay. That's what I thought. That's what I assume when we said bad. [inaudible].

Megan Figueroa: Those kinds of bad.

Carrie: Like, Steven Pinker is a eugenicist. 

Megan Reynolds: That's certainly correct. The one thing that I did come across that I thought, not the eugenicist thing, but a lot of the people getting upset, it's a lot about wanting to guard the old ways, or the ways of doing things. It's crazy, because a dictionary is not an accurate, up-to-date, of-the-minute record of the definition of every single fucking word. A dictionary is outdated by the time it is published, because language and people; words are still happening. People are still doing things. And it takes a while to publish an update to Merriam-Webster. I have to assume it's a large undertaking. Obviously, rules and things exist for a reason. I just don't think we need to have as many in the petty, nitpicky, annoying, like yuck kind of way that a lot of these grammarian stick-up-the-butt kind of people are. I find it to be just exhausting.

Megan Figueroa: Well, it's exhausting too because it's oftentimes sexist and racist and classist.

Megan Reynolds: Right. I would say classism, sexism, the three. Those three friends together. That is the other issue, obviously, is I think evident, that if someone is telling you you're speaking wrong, it's because you don't sound like a white man. And that is cool. I don't know why. Even sound like a white man in the situations that you need to sound like a white man in. Having that skill set, I think, is useful. I don't think it's necessary. If you have that in your little bag, then it's nice. You can use that when you need to. I'm hopeful that we are even evolving away from situations in which sounding like a white man is preferred. [crosstalk].

Megan Figueroa: Yeah. It's definitely a strong trump.

Carrie: He doesn't even sound like a normal white dude. [crosstalk].
 
Megan Figueroa: It's true.

Megan Reynolds: I know.

Carrie: It's totally bizarre.

Megan Reynolds: I don't know what the hell is going on. I watched the brief address after the bombing situation last evening, and I was like, "How?" Because, obviously, he's been president a bajillion times. We know how this man talks and whatever. But I've stopped watching. This felt like World War Three, seems like something we should maybe think about. But when I was watching the address, I was like, "Oh my God, I forgot." He speaks like, "No, what is this?" Like his little crutch words that he relies on. I've never heard anyone say "spectacular" about things that are definitionally spectacular, but also, bad. In general, you don't hear the word "spectacular" very often. I think that's a generational thing. It's like he's the kind of person who says "terrific" in a way that feels very 1950s. I don't know how else to explain it. 

Carrie: No, he definitely has an older way of speaking. And then also on top of that, his own weird way.

Megan Reynolds: Right. It's the two things combined that I'm like, "It is impossible to parse the meaning of what you're trying to say because you sound like a villain from a Russian spy movie during the McCarthy era." I don't understand what is happening.

Megan Figueroa: It's frustrating. 

Megan Reynolds: It's bad. He talks like he tweets, and that is crazy.

Megan Figueroa: He's the president.

Megan Reynolds: And also that. No one should talk like they tweet. And the president shouldn't be doing these things. I don't know.

Carrie: Here's a place where professionalism would be good.

Megan Reynolds: That's the thing. Literally in any possible place, like behind the podium at the White House and the Oval Office or whatever. For fuck's sake, please. God, find a way. 

Megan Figueroa: Find a way.

Megan Reynolds: Find a way. Read the teleprompter. You're already reading the teleprompter. Someone else wrote that because you wouldn't have approved it otherwise. But find a way, my man. Or just go away. Go away, but he won't. 

Megan Figueroa: Send him away.

Megan Reynolds: That's the main problem. Asking him to go over there, he's not going to go. There's no over there.

Megan Figueroa: There's no over there.

Megan Reynolds: That sucks.

Carrie: Yeah. I know. Anyways, is there anything you would like to tell our listeners that we didn't ask you about?

Megan Reynolds: I think the one message that I just really want to get across from this book, besides all the fun learning things that I hope people do learn, is that it's not that deep. It is that deep, but it's actually not that deep. We can spend so many hours and years of our lives just really going inside and picking apart the way we do things. And the one thing that I want anyone to take away is that it doesn't matter. It's okay. What you are doing, unless you're doing something arguably very bad, it is likely fine. It is probably okay. Use the words that we have at our disposal to communicate better. To say what you mean, however the fuck it needs to get out. It's not going to come out perfect the first time. Might not come out perfect the third time. Using filler words like "like" and whatever else will probably help you get to a better place the third time you say it, or the third time you're saying the big thing. And what I want people to know also is just that language naturally evolves. It's evolving right now. You have no control over it. It's fun. It's fun to learn new ways to say things. And that is something we should all just be excited about. That's what we should be nervous about. That's where the energy should be spent figuring out, I don't know. Watch TikTok for an hour and a half and see how the children are talking. They're saying crazy shit. They're saying words that make me feel ancient. And that is a humbling experience. I think everybody could stand to be humble. And if it's some influencer, putting on makeup for 3 minutes and talking like an alien; if that is humbling, great. Perfect. That's interesting. Think about that. 

Don't tell them what they're saying is bad because it's fine. But just look at it. Think about it. Just be excited that language is moving in a way where we can have more words at our disposal to say the things that we mean. And I think I am very word-forward, but I do think precision is nice. It's nice to be able to have a real spread of words, a real buffet to make your little plate to make your meaning. That's what I feel like. I hope at the end, people are just happy with how they've been talking their whole fucking life anyway. They don't have anything else, and are done being annoying to themselves, or other people, if they're annoying to other people about it. Just stop. No one needs to be annoying anymore. Please, God, I'm begging. No one needs to be annoying about the way anyone talks. And I hope that comes through. I really do.

Carrie: That's good. 

Megan Figueroa: Well, we appreciate your time. It's been a lot of fun.

Carrie: Yeah.

Megan Reynolds: Thank you. This was very nerve-wracking. I'm not used to being the question-asked[?], but ask the [inaudible].

Megan Figueroa: [inaudible].

Megan Reynolds: Yes. Thank you. Obviously, I'm not used to that. I'd much rather I've forgotten all of my words. But no, this was good. This is good. I forget that it's coming out, but it's like coming pretty soon.

Megan Figueroa: It's coming soon.

Megan Reynolds: I feel like I've just started thinking about stuff, I guess, again. I loved to think about things that I've already done. I will. I'm excited, and this was great. Thank you, guys.

Megan Figueroa: Awesome. 

Carrie: Thank you. We always leave our listeners with one final message:

Megan Figueroa: Don't be an asshole.

Carrie: Don't be an asshole. 

Megan Reynolds: That is really good. That's great. I hope they listen. I hope they fucking listen. Don't be an asshole. I agree. I could not agree more.

Carrie: Thanks.

Megan Figueroa: Thank you. 

Carrie: The VocalFries Podcast is produced by me, Carrie Gillon. Theme music by Nick Granum. You can find us on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at @VocalFriesPod. You can email us at VocalFriesPod@gmail.com, and our website is VocalFriesPod.com.

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