Serving Language Ideologies

Carrie and Megan talk with Paulette van der Voet and Martina Terrazzano, PhD students at the University of Umea, about their class called “Linguistics and the Eurovision Song Contest”.

• Top 20 Eurovision songs
• Malta and Estonia

Chapters

• 13:31 Interview with Paulette and Martina

Transcript

[intro music]

Carrie Gillon: Hi, and welcome to the Vocal Fries podcast, the podcast about linguistic discrimination. 

Megan Figueroa: I'm Megan Figueroa. 

Carrie: And I'm Carrie Gillo.

Megan: Hey!

Carrie: Hey.

Megan: You think that was a false happy hey?

Carrie: Yeah.

Megan: Like the world isn't falling apart?

Carrie: Yeah, I think we should just say, it feels like World War III is upon us. Who knows how people will react, but pretty shitty that Trump just unilaterally bombed Iran. 

Megan: I got an email from AOC immediately after, and it really sounds like she's going to file articles of impeachment.

Carrie: Which is good. It needs to happen. I know it won't do a fuck thing, but it needs to happen.

Megan: Yeah, I know. There needs to be someone who's doing something like that. I saw a meme already on the internet that was like, "Americans, we just bombed Iran!" And then it said, "me," and it was like, "I didn't do a fucking thing. I didn't vote for this." 

Carrie: No, but America did. He won. Fair and square.

Megan: About that. No, I'm just kidding. 

Carrie: The election system is too decentralized to really steal. Maybe one or two locations.

Megan: A couple counties, maybe.

Carrie: Yeah, I know. He won. By a lot. 

Megan: He won because we're a country of dirtbags.

Carrie: I do think inflation played a role because everybody voted against the incumbent up until him. And then after him, people were like, "Oh, maybe incumbent's not so bad, we don't want a Trumper." For the most part. There's been one or two countries that have still gone the other way.

Megan: I hope everyone stays safe out there.

Carrie: I just hope that calmer heads prevail, but I don't know. I still don't see how this works. Anyways. So, I'm overdue. I meant to read this email sent to us from Rand, and it was about Puerto Rico statehood. And this is what Rand says: "I was just listening to your latest podcast, which was a few ago now, and you were talking about Puerto Rico. They've actually had multiple referendums in which the people have voted for statehood. I won't call myself an expert, but per some of my friends from there, there is a belief that Congress won't vote since it would mean two more Senate seats that would likely be Democratic, and the island would be eligible for more financial benefits that Congress doesn't want to pay." And I agree. I agree that those are likely considerations, but I don't think Congress would vote for it. Especially right now.

Megan: No. Not right now. You're right. It would be two Democratic seats.

Carrie: I don't think it's enough at this point to make a difference.

Megan: No, it's not enough. Again, we are a country of dirtbags.

Carrie: Oh boy, now I have "Teenage Dirtbag" in my head.

Megan: Oh, yes.

Carrie: Speaking of music, this whole episode is about Eurovision, and I thought it'd be nice to at least just chat about what we have discovered in the meantime since recording this, which was a while ago now, actually.

Megan: It was a while ago. Yeah.

Carrie: There's some controversies from this year's Eurovision as well that we could talk about. But maybe let's talk about our favorites that we found from any time in Eurovision, which is a very long time.

Megan: Such a long time. What, like the '70s?

Carrie: No, longer ago than that. Remember?

Megan: Yes. Now, it was a long time ago we talked too. I think I'm just like the '70s, because that's when ABBA did 'Waterloo.'

Carrie: Yes. At least the '50s, because there's one of the most famous songs that ever came out.
In fact, maybe the most famous song that came out of Eurovision is from '58, from Italy. It's now called 'Volare.' [sings] "Volare oh oh."

Megan: Okay, that sounds kind of familiar.

Carrie: Dean Martin sang it. David Bowie sang it. It's a very popular song.

Megan: That's two way different sounding people, too.

Carrie: Yes.

Megan: That's really cool. I'll have to listen to both the versions.

Carrie: Yes. Plus the original. I'll send you the link. Actually, I can send it to you right now. [inaudible] Where I got it from. So, if you scroll down to almost the bottom, because ABBA's number one, just because obviously it's a song that everybody knows.

Megan: Oh, yeah. Look at him. This Italian Diddy.

Carrie: It is an Italian Diddy. Yeah.

Megan: Hey, mine's on this list. Mine's number 10 on this list of 20 best Eurovision songs of all time. I really enjoyed ;Lorraine – Euphoria.' She's from Sweden, 2012. I really enjoyed her energy, and the song gets stuck in your head.

Carrie: Yeah, that one is a good one. It's a fun one.

Megan: Oh, hey. Do I see yours?

Carrie: Yes. So, mine is a fairly ridiculous one, but I just really enjoy it. 'Think About Things' by Daði Freyr, I don't know, from Iceland in 2020, which apparently everyone thought was going to win. It was the favorite to win 2020, but obviously everything got shut down. [crosstalk] So it just didn't happen at all. And then the next year, everyone had different songs, so I didn't get a chance.

Megan: Just happened. That band wasn't back, were they?

Carrie: I doubt it. They usually have different everything. Different songs, different performers.

Megan: Different location.

Carrie: It was definitely in a different location. Yeah. Although I don't know what happened that year because of 2020. There was no winner. Then would they have gone back to the same place?

Megan: Maybe?

Carrie: Probably.

Megan: Yeah. I enjoy your favorite too. Like I was saying off mic before we got on. It is so much more aesthetically pleasing and fun to watch than 'American Idol.' And you said they are two different kinds of shows, but that's true. 'American Idol' seems kind of boring compared to this. Although it is fun to hear how good people are at singing. It's always really impressive.

Carrie: Yeah. It's definitely impressive. It's more about the person performing, as opposed to like, "You're representing an entire nation with this song." It's just a very different thing.

Megan: That's true. That would definitely bring a different vibe. For sure.

Carrie: Yeah. Going through this list, which is just some UK list. It's very UK-focused and heavy.
But there's this song by Lulu, 'Boom Bang-a-Bang' from the UK, which I recognized as I was listening, and I was like, "Oh, okay, I guess some Eurovision songs made it to my consciousness besides ABBA when I was younger." And then Brotherhood of Man, 'Save Your Kisses for Me,' I definitely knew that song. Like, "Oh, okay."

Megan: You didn't know it was a Eurovision song?

Carrie: I had no clue. And then 'Congratulations' by Cliff Richard from 1968 (not the winner, but I guess runner-up), also seemed very familiar to me. So there's just this whole group of songs that the only reason why I must know them, I don't think they were popular enough to be on the air while I was alive. But my dad had the top 50 songs of every year on cassette tapes. He made these tapes.

Megan: He made them?

Carrie: He made them. He worked for CBC, and they had this huge library of vinyl. And so, he just went through and transferred the audio from the vinyl to a cassette tape. 

Megan: Oh my God.

Carrie: We would drive around the province in our car, listening to these tapes. It’s like, "What year do we want to listen to this time?"

Megan: That is so amazing.

Carrie: I know.

Megan: I'm picturing myself as a tween making mixtapes right now. Imagine your dad doing it in this fortress of all this recording equipment and vinyl.

Carrie: Yes. Very different from the way we were doing it as children. More professional.

Megan: More professional. A lot easier than waiting for it to come on the radio.

Carrie: Oh my God, I know. Just like wait and push.

Megan: Wait.

Carrie: Record. Oh my God.

Megan: Kids these days have no idea.

Carrie: They have no idea. When I was a kid too, I would make radio shows, and so I would have fake ads. It was a whole thing.

Megan: Oh my God. Did you interview your sister?

Carrie: Probably. We interviewed all three of us, probably. I don't remember that aspect. I just remember we had to have music. We had to have ads, which is bizarre because my dad worked at CBC. There were no ads.

Megan: Yeah. Why did you come up with that part?

Carrie: I guess because if you're doing a more music-focused thing, most of that was on the commercial radio as opposed to public. But anyway, one last thing before we get to the episode. There were a couple of controversies. The Malta song, the title was 'Serving Kant', I think that was how it would be pronounced. K-A-N-T. Which I guess means serving singing.
But it sounds like 'Serving Kant.'

Megan: Sure does. It really does.

Carrie: They had to take out the 'kant' part and just have 'Serving.' Actually, it's a pretty entertaining song.

Megan: Is it a group or a person who did it?

Carrie: It's a person.

Megan: A person? Okay.

Carrie: Let's see, what's her name? Miriana Conte, I think.

Megan: Okay. And so it's in Maltese, I'm guessing?

Carrie: No. Well, I think it's all English. I just watched it. I think it's all in English. Maybe there's some Maltese in there. I don't think so, but maybe. I guess the 'kant' would be. That part would be, but everything else I think was English. Maybe I'm misremembering. And then the Estonian entry, oh my God. The song is called 'Espresso Macchiato,' and it is also very entertaining. But holy shit, is it infused with Italian stereotypes?

Megan: Oh no.

Carrie: So people are mad. They're saying Tommy Cash should come to Italy to see how decent people really work before daring to write such a stupid and stereotypical song.

Megan: Oh my God.

Carrie: Yeah. It is over the top, but I was thinking Americans would be even worse. They would make it even more stereotypical, in my opinion.

Megan: All right. I can call those dirtbags, but you can't. No, it's true. 

Carrie: Both of those songs are in here if you want to watch them at some point.

Megan: Yes, I'll definitely have to.

Carrie: I think you'll enjoy the 'Serving' one, the Maltese one. The Estonian one is also entertaining, but it's not great, and it's weird. Okay, you're representing Estonia, and your representation of Estonia is mocking a different country. Weird.

Megan: It's really weird. Oh my gosh. The Malta one looks fun.

Carrie: It is fun. I think you'll enjoy it. I didn't super enjoy the winner of this year. Did you see it?

Megan: No. This just happened in February, March?

Carrie: No, it's more recent.

Megan: Not too long ago.

Carrie: It wasn't that long ago. I can't remember exactly when. Anyway, I did not super enjoy it.

Megan: It happens.

Carrie: It happens. And so I'll post the two things that we're talking about today, so you can also listen to any of the songs. There's so many more that are not in these two lists.

Megan: Yes, treat yourself to some of these songs.

Carrie: Yes. Enjoy.

Megan: Enjoy.

Carrie: Okay, so today we're very excited to have two guests with us today. We have Paulette van der Voet, who's a PhD student in Language Teaching and Learning at the Department of Language Studies at the University of Umeå. She has a background within both linguistics and Indigenous studies, which she combines in her current PhD project. Her research is about the different ways we can design curricula for education in Indigenous languages. That's very exciting. We also have Martina Terrazzano, who is a PhD candidate in linguistics and gender studies, also at the University of Umeå. Her project focuses on HIV/AIDS representation in Swedish mainstream and queer magazines. But today, we have them on to talk about their course called 'Linguistics and the Eurovision Song Contest', which is a linguistic perspective on the Eurovision Song Contest by introducing European language policy, discourse analysis, multilingualism, and metaphor. So, welcome.

Megan: Welcome.

Carrie: Thank you so much. It's very exciting. Keep in mind that a big chunk of our audience is in the United States, and not all Americans are aware. So, what is Eurovision? 

Paulette van der Voet: This is a song contest, but it's much more than a song contest. It's one of the largest live media events in the world. It has about the same number of viewers as the Super Bowl, to make a reference here. However, it is a stage where language decisions are made, and that is not the case for many of these other super events or mega events. So, you can make language choices regarding the songs, so, in what language you sing, but you can also make language choices regarding which language the hosts are speaking and in which language the points are given by each country. So, there are many different language decisions at this really big stage.

Megan: So the hosts will speak different languages?

Paulette: They have to speak English and French, that is in the rules, but they can also talk a bit in their language of the host country or in other languages.

Megan: Okay, very cool. Why is French one of the languages?

Paulette: It has been part of Eurovision since the beginning, and because there is no official language of Europe, and besides English, which acts as lingua franca, there are lots of French speakers in Europe. So it's more or less because of that history.

Megan: Very cool.

Carrie: So, why did you want to develop and teach this course? Why is Eurovision interesting?

Martina Terrazzano: We met doing our PhD program in Umeå, and some of us have been watching Eurovision for a long time. Some of us, like me, started when they moved to Sweden. By watching Eurovision together, we really noticed that there was something interesting there happening with language. We think this happens at Eurovision, particularly, but this happens at every mega event. Mega events like the Olympics, for example, are a way to try and project a certain image of a country, for example. So there is a lot of discourse going on there. When it comes to the Eurovision, the language aspect is very clear. As Paulette said, we have language choices. So, [inaudible], in which language does a country decide to sing? Do they use minority languages? Do they use only the most common languages in the country? And how is language used, for example, to give a certain image of a country or to position the artist and the country when it comes to sexual identity, gender identity, and sexual orientation? Also, how are metaphors used in the songs that participate in the Eurovision? So we think there are a lot of layers of things happening in language during the Eurovision. And we thought, why not? Why should we keep pop culture somehow isolated from the academic world? We think it's very good to mix them and to use academic tools to analyze pop culture. And it's a good way to teach linguistics by using, as an example, something that is very fun and that people love in general.

Paulette: It was one way for us to break new students into linguistics, in a way, because we had a lot of students that hadn't been studying linguistics before. It was a really nice entry for them into the topic. We came with this idea, we were like, "This would be good as a summer course. It's fun, but it's serious. We can get students to the department." We were four PhD students, and we were expecting to get a no from somewhere, like the head of the department or higher up, but everybody said yes. They were like, "Try, do it." I also think we have courses with them, we get paid for the number of students we have on courses. So I think they also saw this is a good idea because it can give us money at departments. But it is really nice that they have given us this opportunity to teach linguistics in this way.

Carrie: It's very clever. The sneakier courses draw us people in. They're always so popular. It would never occur to me to do Eurovision, only because I don't know enough about it, but 100%, it makes total sense.

Megan: So, what topics do you cover in this course?

Paulette: So, we have four modules. The first module is on European language policies, and it is about language choices at the Eurovision stage, but it's connected to linguistic history of Europe. That module is taught by Solveig Bollig, who is a PhD student in Nordic languages. The second module is multilingualism and minority languages, that I'm teaching, because that's closest to my research topic. That gives us: how is multilingualism used at the Eurovision stage, and which kind of space are minoritized languages given, or not given at this stage? And then maybe you want to tell something about the other two modules, Martina?

Martina: Absolutely. The third module is the one that I'm teaching, and it focuses on how identity, and specifically gender identity, sexual orientation, and European identity, are constructed through discourse in the Eurovision. So both on stage, but also off stage. For example, press conferences can be very interesting. It's not only what happens on stage that is worthy to be studied somehow. And then we have the fourth module that is taught by Kajsa Törmä. She focuses on metaphor. And so, how are metaphors used in the songs of the Eurovision, and how they work. By using the Eurovision songs, she tries to learn and teach how metaphors work in the general language.

Carrie: Can you talk a little bit more about the onstage versus offstage identity creation?

Martina: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a super interesting topic, as you probably got from my bio. I work both at the Department of Language Studies and at the Center for Gender Studies. So, gender is a big part of my project and of my research education. I think both national and European identity and queerness in general are constructed in a very interesting way when it comes to the Eurovision. We also see that they somehow combine. For example, when it comes to national identity, we have, first of all, the fact that the Eurovision is a contest where every entry represents a country. So, there is this kind of play of cheering for your country and hoping your country will win, and then seeing whether the other countries will vote and how many points they will give to your country. So the national identity is very important, but at the same time, it is the Eurovision. It also implies some kind of European identity. But a fun thing is that we do not agree on what this European identity is, actually. We were talking about it the other day with Paulette. She's Dutch. I'm Italian. Probably our views of European identity are very different. And so, I think it's very interesting to see how, on the Eurovision stage, countries try to position themselves in and outside of the European identity. They try to come to terms with what European identity means. This also combines with the topic of queerness.

Throughout the history of the Eurovision, we have a lot of performances that tried to play with the boundaries, and with what it means to be heterosexual or bisexual, or what it means to be cis or to be trans. There are so many performances trying to work around this concept of queerness, and some of them have become very important. We have Dana International, for example, and more recently, we have Conchita Wurst. But there are so many performances that have been dotting the history of the Eurovision, and they all tried to play with the concept of queerness. What is queerness? How do we define it? And what is normal, in a way? I really think it's very interesting, not only how these two concepts are translated on the stage, but also how they combine with each other. So how is openness toward the LGBT community part of our national identity, or isn't it? So I think it's all very interesting.

Paulette: Don't forget to mention last year's winner, Nemo, with 'The Code'. was about their non-binary identity. It's a more recent example.

Megan: So, would you say that there are some countries that don't embrace that LGBTQ identity as much?

Martina: I think it's not that easy, I will say. In the sense that there are also performances that, in my view, have a very important queer subject, that have come that countries where you maybe don't expect that. I wouldn't say that there is a very clear divide like East/West or North/South. One example that I can give, I'm in Sweden, and when Sweden hosted the Eurovision a few years ago (not the last time, earlier), in their whole opening ceremony, the topic of tolerance towards minorities was actually very big. So in that case, we see that Sweden tried to project a certain idea of themselves as an open, tolerant country. And so it comes also in play with maybe [inaudible] other countries. So, which discourses are we trying to create, and which kind of image of Europe are we trying to give, and which is included in this Europe and which isn't?

Megan: Okay. So they all have their own opening ceremonies, depending on where they hold it each year?

Martina: Yeah.

Paulette: Yes.

Megan: And you say that they use these opening ceremonies as well to project what kind of identity?

Martina: Yeah, definitely.

Megan: I guess we do that with Olympics and that kind of stuff as well.

Carrie: Oh yeah, 100%.

Martina: Yes, that's definitely the parallelism that is often cited also in studies about the Eurovision, that it works a little bit like the Olympics. A very common example is the contrast between Beijing 2008 and London 2012, and how both countries tried to give a certain image of themselves, also in combination, and constructing your identity also by saying what you are not and what you are at the same time. So, I will say it works a little bit like the Olympics.

Paulette: But with more language choices.

Megan: Yes, exactly. I regret to say that I have not seen any Eurovision. I don't know if that's obvious already, so this is really helpful to compare it to the Olympics. I'm really impressed by the scale then of Eurovision. It seems like it's quite a big deal.

Carrie: It's such a big deal that people (well, on Twitter, back in the day, probably it's all moved to Bluesky), who were American would talk about it. I was always surprised when I would see Americans talk about it. But it has, in some circles, become a thing over here too, in North America. So, can we talk a little bit about the ways that we're sneakily drawing in potential linguistics students into the field through Eurovision?

Paulette: Yes. I think that many of our students have been Eurovision fans for a long time, or they have at least a connection to Eurovision. They might have been watching Eurovision and discussing Eurovision. They might have been thinking about why are songs not in countries' national languages anymore? Because that has been the case before. Eurovision has had pretty strict language rules in the past. When it started, it had a completely free choice of languages, and then in '65, Sweden and all countries sang in one of the national languages.
They hadn't thought about that they needed language rules until Sweden in '65 submitted a song in English. And then they were like, "Oh shit, we need language rules because this is not okay."

Megan: Did you say '65? So it's been around that long?

Paulette: Yes. It started in '56.

Megan: Wow. Okay.

Paulette: And then we had some years where they had performances in one of the official languages of the country. And then thereafter, there were some years there was free language choice. That was in the '70s, when we had, amongst other things, ABBA with 'Waterloo', who won. And then, from '77 to '98, we had again that they had to sing in one of the national languages. Although we have these rules, these rules can be interpreted in different ways. We have always had multilingual songs, as long as the majority of the song was in one of the national languages. And then, since 1999, we have free language choices again. So, we have been seeing all kinds of languages being present at this stage. It can be national languages, minoritized languages, classical languages. We have had Ancient Greek and Latin. It can be Creole languages, immigrant languages, but we have also seen constructed languages. So our students have been seeing this, but they have maybe not been reflecting on it and not been connecting it to linguistics. And then, because of how we connected us, because our course has four modules and each module had three lectures—and the first two lectures were an introduction to linguistics on that specific topic, and then the third lecture, we really applied it to the Eurovision Song Contest. So that was how we got them into linguistics.

Carrie: So, what constructed languages have been used?

Paulette: It was completely made-up languages. It was, amongst others, Belgium who started with it. They came second with a song in 2006. And then the motivation that they gave also behind this song in a constructed language was: Belgium has several official languages, and that year they wanted to submit a song in neither of their official languages. So then, they came with a song in a constructed language. And they tried later on again, but then they weren't so successful. The Netherlands also tried once, which was when I was a child, and I can still remember that I listened and I was like, "Oh, this is fun," and this is something that I don't know, but it's still fun. They also didn't do so well.

Carrie: That's interesting. I had no idea. That's amazing.

Megan: I just realized a big difference between 'American Idol', which I guess would be a similar thing, but not to the same scale, and Eurovision songs are written by these people? These are original songs?

Paulette: Yes, they are written for the Eurovision Song Contest, but not necessarily by the one performing. They are most often written by a whole team.

Megan: Okay, they're new?

Carrie: But they're new?

Megan: So, like in 'American Idol', we have cover songs, and people sing.

Paulette: No, that's not allowed in Eurovision.

Carrie: It's a very different kind of singing contest.

Paulette: Exactly. And it's not only singing, because the performance also counts really strong, maybe rather than the quality of singing.

Carrie: Yes.

Megan: You said since 1999, it's been free choice, so they can do it in any language. Have there been some controversial choices since then when using minoritized languages?

Paulette: Maybe not so much [inaudible] some minoritized languages, I think they have always been embraced at the Eurovision stage. What we have seen is that, for example, when France wanted to submit a song in English, people in France, they were like, "It's an honor to present France, then you have to sing a song in French." So there have been that kind of discussions about the language choices.

Megan: Because it is so deeply tied to national identity.

Paulette: Exactly. And especially the Roman countries, they have always (or not always), but they have most often sent songs in one of their national languages. But I also think, because minority languages are so connected, when it comes to Europe, they have a really strong status because of European legislation. So I think that also, because of that, Eurovision also has embraced minoritized languages.

Megan: That's fantastic. 

Carrie: So what does Eurovision tell us about European identities? You talked about it a little bit, but maybe flesh that out a bit.

Martina: Probably that we all talk about it, but no one really knows what it is somehow. We see so many different interpretations of it. We see that there are some kind of borders running across Europe and maybe dividing what is considered as true European identity, and what is instead considered as someone who's just tagging along. But this is also only a view. There are so many different interpretations of what it means to be European and which values are associated with Europe. I think it's a question we still don't know the answer of, and maybe we will never know it, because that's also part of maybe European identity. Part of it is also that we really don't know what European identity is, and every one of us describes it in a different way. I think this really comes up a lot on the Eurovision stage. We had a lot of controversies, for example, when it comes to Eastern European countries. We had a few editions in Eastern European countries that were also framed in a certain way, as somehow being an exception, as somehow being editions that were not fully European, that were not embracing what Europeanness actually means. So there was also this divide, I would say, between East and West. At the same time, we had performances from Eastern European contesters trying to position themselves as part of Europe, of the European identities. So, I see this as a constant pull and push somehow, where everyone tries to find their own place inside of Europe and tries to define what Europe is for them. At the same time, this is always a question without a clear answer. It's just like trying to give your own interpretation again and again on the stage. And I think that's very interesting.

Paulette: For example, the Dutch entry of last year with Joost Klein, it was called 'Europapa', it was about European identity in a way. He used a lot of different European languages, but they were all Western European languages. It was like a certain kind of European identity that was framed there.

Martina: Exactly. And also the opening ceremony of Sweden that I was talking earlier about. I think it was 2013 or '14, but it was the edition right after a number of the editions that took place in Eastern Europe. And part of the discourse around the opening ceremony of the Swedish edition was also the idea that somehow Eurovision was coming back home. And so this also highlights a certain view of Europe, like Europe ends at a certain point, and what is beyond it is not actually European somehow. I think it's very interesting how we try to constantly redesign the border of this concept of Europe and European identity.

Megan: I assume it's at least partially related to the Cold War. Some of the European countries are formerly associated with Russia, and now they're in the West. Is that part of the tension?

Martina: Yes, definitely. I think Eurovision is really eradicated in European history, how we came to be the Europe that we are now and how we see ourselves. I will say that there is a heritage that also comes from the Cold War and comes from a lot of historical moments that shaped Europe in what is now expressed in the Eurovision.

Carrie: How about other kinds of identities? What does Eurovision tell us about whatever identity you think is important or interesting to talk about here?

Martina: Well, as someone in gender studies, of course, I will say my focus, and in my module, I've focused a lot on queerness. I would say there is a strong association between the queer community and the Eurovision. The queer community is a very strong fan base for the Eurovision. I think it's always very hard when people ask why, because I think it's very hard to ask ourselves, "Why are we attracted to a certain type of media? Why do we follow certain things?" What many scholars have been saying is that Eurovision somehow gives you the possibility to manifest some national pride without the very heteronormative subtext that is usually associated with expressing national pride. That may be an answer. What we can definitely see is that Eurovision has often played with a very camp aesthetic. We know that this is also something pivotal in queer cultures. So I can see these overlapping. As I was saying earlier, I think the queer community really shape also which kind of performances find their place to the Eurovision stage. We have so many performances trying to work with the concept of queerness, but also with the concept of gender identity—what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be non-binary, for example, in the case of Nemo last year.

So, we have a history of many performances. Some of them, I would say, also like a breakthrough for the time in which they were actually taking place. I will say there is hereto a constant push and pull with the concept of gender identity and sexual orientation. We have on one hand, as I was saying, some performances that could be defined as revolutionary for their time. At the same time, we also have performances that instead try to manifest a more traditional view of what is feminine, what is masculine. So I would say it's something that is always there on the stage, and then it can be interpreted in a very different way. The way gender identity and sexual orientation are interpreted on the stage is also connected to what I was saying before about national identity. I would say they constantly cross each other and connect each other.

Paulette: And then we also have linguistic identities that are performed on this stage. For example, you can show your identity by the use of multiple languages, and we have seen that. For example, the Netherlands in 2021, had a song, it was in English, but it had parts of the song in Sranan Tongo, which is one of the languages of Suriname, a former colony of the Netherlands. And we also see that in, for example, songs that use immigrant languages of the country. In 2011, I think, Norway had a song which was partly in Swahili. So we see that linguistic identity is also something that can be visible through language choices on this stage. And that is also something which is really interesting. It's not the only form of multilingualism that we see on this stage. Multilingualism on the Eurovision stage can have different motivations, but it's one of the motivations for having a multilingual song.

Megan: So, do we normally see, when it's multilingual, would the case normally be that they use the national languages (like multiple national languages), or are you seeing more and more immigrant languages being used?

Paulette: Immigrant languages are not that often the case, but what we most often see is that it's a combination of English and one of the national languages of the country. And then most often with the chorus in English, so that it's easy to sing along for the audience. That is something that we see most often. But at the same time, the last couple of years, we see more and more often a more translanguaging way of multilingualism in Eurovision songs. It's not so divided anymore that it has the chorus in English and the rest in one of the national languages. We see more and more [inaudible] which in-between work, in the same sentences. For example, the Dutch song this year, one sentence in French, one sentence in English, and it goes that way throughout almost the whole song. So we see more and more another view on multilingualism as well. [inaudible].

Megan: I'm just thinking about the talent of actually singing one French sentence, and then one English sentence, and going back and forth. It takes a nice grasp of both languages to do that.

Paulette: Yes.

Megan: Does each country only have one applicant? Is that the case?

Carrie: How do they get chosen?

Paulette: That differs between countries. For example, here in Sweden, we have several national selections, or it's one national selection. We have several evenings in January and February that we have a big show in one of the largest cities in Sweden with several participants where people are chosen to go to the finals. And then we have the finals. That is how participants are chosen here in Sweden. For example, in the Netherlands, there is a committee. I have no clue who is part of this committee, and they just decide someone. It differs between countries, but maybe Sweden has the most extensive, and maybe Italy as well.

Martina: Italy, actually, we have one contest, but it is squeezed in 4 days. Something that really surprised me when I came to Sweden was that the process of the Melodifestivalen to decide who's going to Eurovision is pretty long. It takes many more weeks than we do. We just have one week, and it's concentrated in one week. 

Megan: The applicant is chosen, and then there's a committee that works on the song for that applicant or that specific applicant.

Paulette: It depends per country. Here in Sweden, they participate with a song in the contest, and it's that song that it's going to Eurovision. I think that is the case for most countries with national preselections. For example, the Netherlands, there is first chosen an artist, and then there is chosen a song. So, it depends per country. And there are also countries, for example, this is often the case in Iceland and Denmark, where in the national selections, they're singing in Danish and Icelandic, while the song will be translated to English for the Eurovision.

Megan: I'm just thinking about [crosstalk] America. I'm just thinking about American Idol, multilingualism is not celebrated here the way it is in Europe. This is really impressive to me that there are so many languages that are celebrated and that minoritized languages are even celebrated. 

Carrie: That's very fun.

Paulette: That's part of the European identity.

Megan: Yeah, to be multilingual. So in European countries, is it the case that most of the time there is a national language or two, a couple of national languages? Because we just got a national language in the U.S., and so this is new to us. But it's not new to European countries.

Paulette: No, not at all. 

Carrie: No, it's pretty normal around the world.

Megan: To have a national language, yes. 

Carrie: To have an official language or multiple official languages.

Martina: And then, in the case of Italy, for example, you have a number of minority languages that are protected by law. 

Megan: But they're not necessarily the official languages?

Martina:  It's like a different status, I would say. They are minority languages, and they are officially named. The law has to protect them somehow, but I wouldn't call them national languages, probably.

Paulette: But it can be the case that minoritized languages are a national language. For example, in Norway, where the Sámi languages are equal to Norwegian.

Megan: Wow. That's really amazing.

Carrie: [inaudible], oh, Megan.

Megan: I'm so impressed by Europe, especially right now.

Paulette: The practice is not always that perfect, I can say. On paper, there is a lot of good intentions.

Carrie: Yeah, it's almost all just on paper, but it's better than the United States, where there's nothing, basically. Or very little. I shouldn't say there's nothing, because in Alaska, that's a state that has official language status. I can't even remember how many indigenous languages, but it's not all dire. So, speaking of indigenous or minoritized languages, how often are they used in Eurovision?

Paulette: I don't have any statistics about this, but maybe once or twice every 5 years, when it comes to minoritized and indigenous languages.

Megan: And it's not necessarily a certain country, it could be different countries that are using them?

Paulette: It's different countries in general.  And most often, it's not a whole song in the minoritized languages, but it's most often a multilingual song. Although we also have examples where the whole song was in the minoritized languages. For example, a couple of years ago, France sent a song in Breton. That was completely in Breton.

Carrie: Cool. What is your favorite Eurovision song ever?

Martina: For me, I think it's actually this year's entry for Sweden. I think it's my favorite—KAJ's 'Bara Bada Bastu.'

Carrie: All right. 

Paulette: It's also a very special year this year for Sweden, because Sweden is one of the countries that have always used the language policy of Eurovision to be able to sing in English whenever it was possible. So, since 1999 (1998 was the last time) but since 1999, Sweden has sent songs in English. This will be the first year that they sent a song in Swedish. And it's not Swedish spoken in Sweden, but it's Finland Swedish spoken in Finland. And then also a very specific dialect of that. So that is really fascinating. It's also a really nice example of how Eurovision songs can teach the general audience in Europe something about languages because even, they participated here in Sweden in the national selections, but a lot of Swedes weren't aware that much that Finland Swedish is not the way Finnish people speak Swedish. It is the mother tongue of a lot of 300,000 people, about that, in Finland. That is also a way of teaching people about language. So that is really fun.

Carrie: I love that.

Megan: Yeah, that's very cool. What about you, Paulette? Do you have a favorite song?

Paulette: Yes, I think it's a scene with 'De diepte.' It was the Dutch entry a couple of years ago, and it was in Dutch. It was just a beautiful song.

Megan: Very cool.

Carrie: Okay, we'll have to find both of them. Do you remember the year?

Paulette: 2023 or 2022.

Carrie: Okay, I'll find it. 

Paulette: Not that long ago.

Carrie: I really should know more about Eurovision. Celine Dion went one year.

Megan: Really?

Paulette: Yes.

Carrie: I think on behalf of Switzerland?

Paulette: Yes.

Megan: Is she Swiss?

Carrie: Well, she's Quebecois, but I guess she's got Swiss ancestry. Maybe.

Paulette: You don't need to have the nationality of the country you're participating for.

Carrie: Okay. That's good to know.

Megan: Oh, wow. 

Paulette: For example, the people that are competing for Sweden this year, they're actually Finnish.
The people that were competing for Sweden last year, they were actually Norwegian.

Carrie: How do Swedes feel about that?

Martina: There are a lot of jokes about it right now.

Carrie: I bet. Are there any topics that we didn't ask you about that you would like to tell our listeners about?

Paulette: Maybe the thing that Eurovision is marketed and presented as an apolitical event, and countries are not allowed to have political entries. While Eurovision is highly political, especially what we already talked about when it comes to language choices and identity choices related to Eurovision. And that is something that has always been at the stage. In 1980, Norway sent a song partly in North Sámi. That was at the height of the Alta protests in Norway, which were a really important point for the Sámi population there, where they got a lot of rights and so on. At that moment, they sent a song partly in North Sámi about North Sámi identity. So, we have always seen this kind of very political entries. Jamala for Ukraine.

Martina: Exactly. I can think about Czechia also a couple of years ago. They sent a song called 'My Sister's Crown,' and the song could be read both as an anthem for female solidarity, but also as an anthem for solidarity between Eastern European countries. And this is very clear in the text. So it's always there. It's always something that artists try to play with. You try to test the boundaries, maybe how much you can say and what you cannot say.

Carrie: Yeah. It's always funny when we try to say, "No politics, no politics." 

Martina: Is that even possible?

Paulette: Is it possible?

Carrie: It's basically not impossible.

Paulette: [inaudible].

Carrie: You show me a video of a bunch of kittens running around, maybe that's not political. Everything else. Well, this has been really fascinating. I definitely learned a lot.

Megan: Yeah, me too. 

Carrie: As I knew I would, because my knowledge of Eurovision is very limited, like the ABBA thing, the Ukraine entry, et cetera.

Megan: Yeah, I learned a lot, too. I haven't even seen an episode, [inaudible] an episode. I guess that's what they're called. I don't know what they're called.

Carrie: I didn't[?] know, a contest event? I don't know.

Megan: I haven't seen any of them before. This is really, truly fascinating. A lot of fun to talk about. And we really appreciate you coming on the show.

Martina: Thank you so much for having [inaudible].

Paulette: Thank you for having us. 

Carrie: And we always say to our listeners one final message: Don't be an asshole.

Megan: Don't be an asshole.

Carrie: The Vocal Fries Podcast* is produced by me, Keri Gillan, with the music by Nick Granum. You can find us on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, @vocalfriespod. You can email us at vocalfriespod@gmail.com. Our website is vocalfriespod.com.


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