Shuffling off This Mortal Coil

Megan and Carrie talk with Poppy Mardall, the founder and chair of Poppy’s, about the Dead Good Words campaign around dehumanizing and euphemistic language about death.

• Calm History podcast
• West Virginia University shutting down World Languages
• WVU Finances
• Jonah Katz

Chapters

• 12:16 Interview with Poppy Mardall

Transcript

Carrie Gillon: If you want to learn about curious moments from history while also lowering your stress, then try the new podcast, Calm History.

Megan: Each episode is narrated in a calm voice to help you to relax or fall asleep.

Carrie: You'll enjoy learning about famous explorers, leaders, inventions, civilizations, and ancient wonders.

Megan: There's even a six-part series about the Titanic.

Carrie: Just search your podcast player for Calm History or use the link to Calmhistory.com in the episode notes.

Megan: Hi, and welcome to the Vocal Fries Podcast, the podcast about linguistic discrimination.

Carrie: I'm Carrie Gillon.

Megan: And I'm Megan Figueroa.

Carrie: I wanted to say because we waited so long, and I somehow, like, missed this for months, we owe someone a thank you.

Megan: Oh, no. Well, it just means that much more, because now we're, like, sorry. Oh, did you hear that? I got a little...

Carrie: I heard your Canadian "sorry". 

Megan: We have a... sorry behind it, too.

Carrie: So thank you to Rory Turnbull, who's been our patron for months and months and months and months, and I somehow missed it, even though I thanked him, and I think you sent him a sticker, and we did all the things, and it's just oh, my goodness. I feel so bad.

Megan: Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you. We are so grateful for you.

Carrie: Yes. And if anyone else would like to support us, remember that this helps us pay our editor and our transcriptionist. You can join us at patreon.com/vocalfriespod. And I also want to thank everybody for hanging on while we took well, it was mostly me, but we took off August because I needed a mental health break because I have had a year.

Megan: Yeah, you have.

Carrie: Yeah.

Megan: And you stuck with it. August is long overdue, for sure.

Carrie: Yeah. I think we probably need to take a month off every year because wow, did I feel so much better. Like refreshed.

Megan: Yeah. You're rejuvenated.

Carrie: I'm a little bit rejuvenated.

Megan: I can tell from here.

Carrie: I mean, some weird things happened this month that, oh, my goodness. We have to talk about, but whatever.

Megan: I can't wait. Do you have some stuff to tell me?

Carrie: Yes. Well, there are a bunch of things I could talk about, but I realized that what we probably should talk about is the situation at West Virginia University.

Megan: Oh, my God. I just... My body got the reverse of chills like whatever it is when it doesn't feel good. Do you have an article or anything up? I don't want to get details wrong on what's happening. They basically want to cut language.

Carrie: Not want to.

Megan: They are.

Carrie: So they're eliminating its World Languages department, but recommending keeping five teaching positions and letting students take some language courses as electives. But basically, they're getting rid of all languages except for two. Can you guess which two?

Megan: Spanish and Arabic.

Carrie: Half right.

Megan: Spanish and Mandarin.

Carrie: Right.

Megan: Okay. Because I was thinking, like, globalism.

Carrie: Well, of course, it's going to be a big language. Of course, but...

Megan: Oh, my God. So five positions, which means they're going to be split between those two languages because it's not going to be a linguistics position because linguistics is underneath this. Right?

Carrie: I mean, some of them might be linguists, but they will only be teaching a language.

Megan: Right.

Carrie: Yes. So linguistics is gone, as a field will not no longer be at this university.

Megan: I'm horrified in so many different ways, on a personnel level, these people are losing their jobs. I mean, it's not as if academia has a ton of positions to offer. These people are just losing their jobs.

Carrie: I know, and it's a reminder that we have this idea that academic jobs are really stable, but they're not. Like even tenured positions can go like that if the university just either dissolves like it has in some cases, or it dissolves a department or two.

Megan  Right. And I wouldn't be surprised if this is what is it like a harbinger... 

Carrie: I say harbinger. I'm not going to say that's correct, but that's how I say it.

Megan: I do wonder if the dictionary has both as correct. I never really say that word out loud, so that's why I'm second-guessing myself. It is foreshadowing. It's like telling us what's to come. I think there are going to be more cuts like this. It's not good. It's setting a precedent.

Carrie: I don't even think it's setting a precedent. This has happened before. I mean, an entire university in Canada folded last year.

Megan: Really?

Carrie: Our friends Mark and Avon from the Endless Knot both lost their jobs because of that. Now, Mark was, I think, only part-time, but still so they lost basically like a job and a half.

Megan: Yeah. Now that you say that, that is what happened, and oh, my God, that's awful. And so, this is going to keep happening. I'm not surprised that the powers that be at West Virginia University decided that language and languages were the thing to go. I mean, I wonder if they have a business school. They're not going to cut business schools.

Carrie: Of course not. That brings in total money. Although this department was also bringing in money, was actually making the money. But business school makes probably a lot more money. I'm going to guess.

Megan: No, I read that. I think I read something on Slate. I think it was by someone who had graduated from one of the programs that's being cut. They were saying that it does make money. So, I was a little bit surprised by that because I thought it would be a clear-cut case if they could say that, oh, it's just not making any money, that's why we're doing it. But no, that's not even what they can say.

Carrie: No. Yeah, it's not smart. And apparently, it all comes down to... so according to Jonah Katz, an associate professor there, so again, someone with tenure. Right? According to him, they were bringing in more than $800,000 in profit.

Megan: Wow.

Carrie: And I saw the day these cuts were announced, I think he and another person in the department but maybe I'm wrong, people in that department were just, like, just found out that they had gotten this pretty big grant, probably from the NSF. I wasn't really paying that much attention, but that same day, they get this huge grant, and then also bye your jobs are gone.

Megan: And so the grants I mean, maybe if they got another job, the grant well, certainly if they got another job, the grant would follow, I believe. But where are they going to get a job? I mean, there's just no jobs. 

Carrie: Yeah, and you can't get a job immediately. That's not how the academic world works.

Megan: Right.

Carrie: I don't know. It's so foolish. It's pound foolish. Pennywise. Whatever you say. Except not even Pennywise, because... 

Megan: No. Things that are in the humanities are considered humanities or world languages. I mean, these things are too often considered expendable, even if they're making money. Just so horrifying. And that's a state school. And so there are people at, you know, who live in West Virginia that are dreaming of one day going to college, and they're going to go there, and now this is what they're inheriting.

Carrie: Yeah.

Megan: It's awful. It's so awful. And I just feel so much for the people that are losing their jobs. Linguistics is just being erased as an entire field. I mean, that's wild.

Carrie: Yes.

Megan: And yeah, ultimately, this is going to end up hurting students who are supposed to be the ones that you're serving.

Carrie: They don't care.

Megan: They don't care. That makes me very sad. But at least there are things like podcasts where you can learn some stuff. 

Carrie: Yeah. Oh, that actually reminds me. I completely forgot. We've had a few emails about our last episode.

Megan: Oh, Termites.

Carrie: Not so much about the Termites, but about our intro to that.

Megan: Which one was the intro?

Carrie: Okay, well, let's listen to tell me. Just listen to it and you'll figure it out. Dear Carrie, Megan, I recently listened to the latest episode and had to chuckle when you were talking about the raunchy pun hidden in plain sight in the French language poster for the Barbie movie. It reminded me of another moment I have to tell you about. Megan, I hope you get a big kick out of this one because it's related to Spanish. In The Princess Bride, there is a scene where the Brute Squad is clearing all the thieves and bandits out of the forest ahead of Buttercup and Humperdinck's wedding. But Inigo Montoya is drunk and refusing to leave. One of the men from the Brute Squad approaches and calls out, "Ho there". Inigo snarls in response, "Keep your ho there."

Megan: Oh, my God.

Carrie: To any monolingual English speaker, it sounds like he's saying, keep your hoe there, just repeating what the other guy said. But to Spanish speakers, it's crystal clear that he's using Spain's favorite and most versatile swear. It's broadly equivalent to fuck. I remember being in college, watching the movie with a bunch of friends after returning from my semester abroad in Spain, hearing him say that and the light bulb going off. Oh, my God. It's been here the whole time. I've seen this movie dozens of times since I was a little kid and I never knew what he was really saying. It's absolutely glorious. Whoever thought to put that into the scene was inspired. It gives me great joy every time I think about it. Hope you get a chance to watch The Princess Bride sometime soon so you can enjoy it, too. Best, Kelly.

Megan: Kelly. I love it.

Carrie: I never picked up on that. I have watched that movie so many times. Also, I didn't know that word. Like, it's not a word.

Megan: You didn't?

Carrie: No.

Megan: Yeah.

Carrie: I know some swears in Spanish. Not that one. So, yay...

Megan: Here's a good excuse to watch it again as if anyone needs an excuse to watch it.

Carrie: Right.

Megan: I love that.

Carrie: And by the way, finally saw Barbie.

Megan: Me too.

Carrie: And it was very enjoyable.

Megan: It was loved [inaudible] loved him. I know that's not the point of the movie, but...

Carrie: I didn't even really think about it. I mean, obviously, he's got a hot body, but that's not what I was paying attention to. I was paying attention to his sad, lost boy vibes.

Megan: I know he has the nicest ABS for someone who is so sad and so obsessed with horses. 

Carrie: Well, and just obsessed with not being loved in the way he wanted to be loved.

Megan: It's true. Poor kid. He is Caniff.

Carrie: He is Caniff now, but he wasn't Caniff.

Megan: He wasn't until the end.

Carrie: Anyway, there are others, and I think I'll probably just continue to read them out to you in the next one because there are some other good ones.

Megan: I love it.

Carrie:  Anyway, this episode is super interesting.

Megan: It is.

Carrie: And learned a lot about the language of death.

Megan: So we're so excited about Poppy Mardall, who is the founder and chair of forward-thinking, award-winning funeral Director Poppies in London. Poppies are campaigning to change the way we talk about death and dying. The Dead Good Words campaign, which launched this summer, highlights how dehumanizing and euphemistic language such as disposal, removal and deceased can lead to poor care for the dead and for grieving relatives and friends. And we're about to talk to Poppy about that very campaign. So, Poppy, thank you so much for being here with us.

Poppy Mardall: Thank you. So thrilled to be here. Thank you for inviting me to this conversation.

Megan: Yeah, I'm really excited about it. I've been thinking about death and dying, anticipating our conversation, and so I'm really looking forward to this. Let's just start from the beginning. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you become a funeral director and what makes Poppies different?

Poppy: I do not come from a family of people who work in death care. And I don't know how it is in the US, but certainly in the UK, it's quite normal for that work to sort of run in families. So my background is actually in the Arts, so I studied the history of art and then I worked at auction houses like Sotheby's and Christie's and there is no Segue, which still people are like, and then what happened? But I think for me, the story that makes more sense is that I come from a family where public services are kind of a big thing. So my mum was a social worker, my dad was a teacher, and we definitely were brought up to be really tuned into those kinds of ways of thinking about the world, that you have a responsibility to help, I guess, it's most of the basic form. And then what I studied in the world I worked in was so fun. It was unbelievable fun and I loved every minute of it, but I just got to that point early in my career where I felt like the days make sense, but when I look back, I just don't feel like I'm in the right place. And so I had a couple of years of trying to figure it out and did not figure it out and ended up taking some time out to go traveling and I was in West Africa and I got Typhoid. It's not that I almost died or that I thought I was going to die, but what I did have was then sort of like nine months of recovery and I think when I look back, it's like, yeah, if I didn't have that really extended gap, there's no way I would have made this kind of move. 

During that time, there were something like four different exposes on TV about the funeral sector, showing everything from manipulative sales techniques, kind of overselling, miss-selling, pressurizing people to buy, all the way to really appalling care of the dead in the mortuary. So racism towards the dead and families being told people were being dressed in clothes that were then just put in like a bag at the bottom of the coffin. So just grim stuff. And if you knew me, you'd know that that is the kind of catalyst. I need that sort of like rage factor. And once I've got it, once I've got my fingernails in that sort of piece of rage, then it's like fear disappears. I'd never seen a dead body. I didn't know anyone who worked in the sector and I don't think when I started out, I wasn't certain that I'd become an undertaker. I think I just thought I could get involved here. This work is about gentleness and thought and care and it's about taking something that is a completely ubiquitous experience that everybody goes through and I think I could help. And so I started off by going behind the scenes with a bunch of funeral directors who kindly let me come in. And what I saw there ranged from nice, often quite sort of old fashioned practices all the way to real sort of like production line, clinical grim and that sort of sealed the deal for me because there was a real sense of, okay, my family haven't been in business since 1824, like some other Funeral directors, but I think I could bring some fresh air to this time in people's lives. 

So I set Poppies up. So we're 11 years old, so set up in 2012. The whole mission behind Poppies is it's about trying to bring humanity and care to a time in your life that we think really matters although, of course, everyone would say death matters. But actually, when you think about how we are dying in the West and the rituals around death, it's like they haven't had very much thought in a very long time. And that's what we try to do. So we try to put the families and the communities that we work for right at the center of the experience and build whatever they need around them. And for some people that might be something very affordable, for some people that might be something with the environment at its core, wanting to kind of leave the best possible legacy. For another person, it might be an orthodox religious priority or tradition. So we don't have a fixed view of what the thing should look like. We just want it to work for you.

Carrie: Yeah, I was going to say that lovely...

Poppy: [inaudible]

Carrie: I know, it's so beautiful because I was thinking there's not a lot of being present in the moment in those situations and there's not much thought for a lot of families beyond how am I going to pay for this? When I realized that it could be so much more than just how am I going to pay for this? It could be how would this best represent my grandmother. Or all these questions that maybe you could actually have and pursue if these details that in the West... At least in the US is usually the first question that people have on their mind.

Poppy: Absolutely. And I think it's about separating out the bits, the kind of responsibilities you have. Right. So in the UK, you have a legal responsibility to do something with the person who's died, as in cremate them or bury them. But there is no legal requirement to have a ritual. We don't practice rituals because there is a legal requirement to practice rituals. We practice rituals because they move us emotionally and we need them because we're animals. And so that's the piece that I think we've sort of slightly lost track of. It's like, of course, there are these practical questions and again, in the west, we like piling our emotions into the practical, right? That's a place we can put our feelings. And I think in doing so we have lost sight of that there is a kind of purpose to the ritual piece too and actually we do know a bit about this because we've come an awfully long way around birth. Like when my mum explains what it was like when my brother and I were born in the early 80s, her memories are of being somewhat patronized and sort of bossed around by a doctor. 

That kind of like lie back and do what I say. And my mum's view was I just wanted to get you guys out of there as soon as possible and sort of get home and kind of escape the institution, glad to have the medical care and then wanting to get out of there and I think it's kind of similar with that. When I have been pregnant, we've come a long way, at least in the UK and I think in lots of Europe and perhaps in the US too, that the idea is like this is actually happening to you and that you might want to have a say in what the experience is like and that that might be better for you and for the health of your partner and family. And I guess for me there's a complete mirror image with death. These are the only two experiences that we will all share as human beings, as living creatures and we should be thinking about what we need from that time because we work with families or I've met people in my life who have been hugely traumatized by that moment in their life. There are many, many people who have really tricky memories of what happened around the dying and the death and the funeral when their parent died. There are tons of people who weren't allowed to go to their dad's funeral because there was an assumption that they were being protected from an experience.

Carrie: Yeah, I haven't had that experience. But my mother did try to protect me from my grandfather dying because I was in my last year of my undergrad, just about to go into exam period. And when I found out, I think she told me the day before he died, she finally admitted he's dying. And I was so mad that she was trying to protect me. I understood why but I was angry.

Poppy: What is the lasting impact, do you think that's had any impact on you over time? 

Carrie: I don't think so. I think it's just one thing of many things where I felt like maybe she was trying to protect me too much but I don't feel like I have that relationship with her anymore because I'm so much older. I think now, I am okay, but there was a short period of time where it really did deeply impact me that she was trying to protect me from something so important. But I was able to go to his funeral. I mean, he lived in Vancouver so it was really easy for me to be there. And it was very meaningful. It was a very meaningful service because it was full of his particular brand of Christianity like it really suited him. And I did really appreciate that.

Poppy: But I think that's a really good representation of what happens at a societal Level, which is very much relevant to the Good Words campaign, that we think we are protecting each other and ourselves by not naming what's happening. And in the vacuum that we create by not talking emerges just an endless wormhole of anxiety, fear and sort of existential angst. There is something about why are we trying to protect each other from a natural process that is impossible to avoid. I'm not sure it's helpful.

Carrie: It's not helpful. I understood why because I was in this stressful period of my life, but it was counterproductive in the end. So what is the dead Good Words Campaign?

Poppy: This is a campaign that we at Poppies launched in the summer. From the very beginning of my interaction, in the world of death care, I became aware that there were these words, some euphemistic, some jargony, some both...

Carrie: Legal?

Poppy: Some coming from sort of legal beginnings. But like kind of astounding that they haven't been reviewed since like 150 year old word. That there's just such a lack of thought, I think that was my sense. I didn't think these are words that are intentionally malicious or designed to harm. It just felt like, "oh my goodness", these words have just existed in this tiny microcosm that the public are sort of somewhat protected from, but the impact of these words is impacting people. And so I felt that very, very early on. So, I remember spending some time with the funeral directors and they kindly let me sort of come out on their work. So we would go and collect people who died at home, and this was called a removal. So we're going to do a removal. And you just think I don't know that anyone thinks that the moment their dad leaves the house for the last time is a removal. That's something you do with like a splinter or an object that you don't want to be there. That doesn't feel like the right word. We've known for 11 years we've been doing this work, that there are all sorts of words that are unkind and thoughtless, I think there is this coalescing of the words, all of the words, because the kind of key one disposal, is the one we really pull out. So you don't use that word in the US, you use disposition. But for us, what happens to the body is disposal. That is the kind of legal technical term for what happens to the body. And actually, if you look at the words together, you do start to see this theme of kind of treating the body like a waste. There is something of a kind of getting rid of an unwanted thing. And so the reason we launched the campaign this summer was because the kind of catalyst was there's a piece of work happening in the UK to reform the law around what happens to the dead body. And we have a legal body in the UK called the Law Commission and they're doing this piece of work and it's a fantastic piece of work and we've been to meet with them and I'm so behind the piece of work. But the project was called Finding A Modern Framework for Disposal of the Dead and there was just something about that title, it was like, oh my goodness it's like 2023 and we're finding a Modern framework for disposal. And I'm thrilled to see I was looking this morning, we've met with a bunch of times and they've changed the title of the project.

Carrie: That's awesome.

Poppy: It's brilliant.

Megan: It's Good.

Carrie: And what did they change it to?

Poppy: So now it's called burial cremation and New Funerary Techniques, which is absolutely fine. It was such a great representation of the kind of thoughtless language that we use and no one means to do any damage, but no one is really talking about this stuff. So the campaign, it felt like a brilliant opportunity to raise awareness of the language. Some languages that I think people would be familiar with and others people wouldn't be familiar with. These are words you might not hear, but these words are framing your experience and we need to start to have an opinion on this if we want the care that we receive when someone dies to improve. The campaign is not about asking for any specific change in any specific time frame. It's about beginning to raise awareness of this work that goes on behind closed doors, which impacts absolutely everyone that we think matters hugely well.

Megan: And I feel like this is the perfect platform for that because our podcast is all about awareness. Because a lot of times Carrie and I will just when we talk to people about this stuff, about linguistic discrimination or about how the language that we use impacts our lives, it's just about getting people to stop and think about it. And that may seem like maybe some people want a step forward that looks different than that, but that is a huge step forward, is just being aware.

Poppy: It's the first step. You can't do anything without that first step. I mean, I'd love to hear your perspectives too, over the conversation because I was thinking about this, that when we were bringing our campaign together, like, are there going to be groups of people who really aggressively disagree with what we're saying? And on reflection, I was like, I don't think there are. I don't think this is something that is kind of threatening any one party. I think this is an area of just thoughtlessness.

Megan: Yes.

Poppy: And I know there are other subjects where a shift in language might represent a shift in something greater, which some people might feel is kind of infringing on there... but I think this is interesting because it's just like it's existed in this dark, taboo, shadowy corner. I hope it's simply a case of kind of shining a torchlight on and saying, does anyone know what's happening over here?

Carrie: Right.

Megan: I think it's just more in this case because death is so taboo, at least in Western societies. I think we want to use more medical, and scientific terms to distance ourselves. But maybe if we step back and think about why are we doing that, we can actually maybe make the taboo less strong and come at it from a more caring perspective. Because, yeah, it is something that happens to all of us. And what do we want to happen after we're dead? Do we really want to be discussed in these terms? Probably not. So I think this will resonate with most people.

Poppy: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point because I think there are analogies and parallels, I think of when I grew up, kind of words for private parts of my body that we use euphemisms and I have a daughter and it's really important to me that she knows what things are. And it's true with death as well. It's like, how do I serve? There's nothing like having a conversation with a child when they have a question and it's so straightforward and it's like I don't want to tie you in knots. This classic thing of she's sleeping now or this idea of death is just like one big sleep for a child This is absolutely petrifying and is going to really disrupt bedtime. Why would I choose that path, which is just like a huge knot, rather than saying, okay, look, there's this tough thing, but we're all in it together. And I can stand by your side as we kind of look at it and question it. And I don't have all the answers and you don't have all the answers. But there's nothing wrong with questioning and questioning and questioning. And I think that's the challenge with the taboo and the euphemisms is there's no doubt that death is petrifying and that loss is petrifying, but we really don't help ourselves by hurling in all these other tangles.

Megan: I in total agreement. I was thinking this is going to perhaps disrupt how people think about death and dying, but I think the big issue is going to be whether they're going to be willing to address it, willing to even listen, stop, think, when there are content warnings and stuff, there are content warnings about death and dying. And so it's this thing where it's like, are people going to even engage? And not because it's going to have to shift like political views or something like that. It's like, can they emotionally do it?

Poppy: And I think the work of Poppies is interesting in that way. We're not some sort of tech startup that's looking to kind of come in and get out within five years. The work we're doing is actually the work that our ancestors have been doing for a very long time. Caring for the dead is obviously a very ancient way to care for people in the community. And I think it's true with this shift of two, as I say, it's not like we demand this change by the first of September. It's absolutely saying we get this privileged access to this privileged world and it doesn't feel right that it stays private to us. And I don't think this stuff is going to change overnight. There are moments, I know in the UK, there have been moments, particularly around exposes of kind of horrible care, know that it's sort of sudden bolts of lightning happen. But you're absolutely right, this is a decades-long project to kind of try and tempt people, as I think is happening with other things, like mental health. This stuff has always been around, it will always be around. We think it would help if we brought it into the light.

Carrie: Yeah. Absolutely.

Poppy: Who's willing to come into the light with us?

Megan: Oh, absolutely. I feel the same way when I casually mention that I go to therapy. Come on. I want to say it without halting or just say it casually because I don't want there to be any stigma coming from me about it. So I think it's the same way. And I think with death and dying to, like me being able to talk about it the way I am right now, it took me a long time to get here. I don't think, like,10 years ago this would have been a conversation that was easier, something that I would have been able to partake in the same way.

Megan: Do you still use really euphemistic language around death? How do we say it now?

Carrie: Passed away.

Megan: Passed away or do you say dead?

Carrie: I say died. Unless I'm like, does that person need me to say passed away?

Megan: Yeah, same.

Carrie: What about you, Poppy?

Poppy: That's actually something I really wanted to sort of make sure I got across. It's like, this is not some dictatorial finger waggy, you all need to say died. Similarly, in our work, we will live with the facts. And then if we hear that someone is using a different word, we'll use that word in the same way that someone calls and says, my dad has died, and we'll say your dad, if they say my dad will say your dad. If they say Mr. Smith, we'll say Mr. Smith. Like any emotionally intelligent person, you're mirroring the person who should have. You should not be the one with power in this situation. I think the crucial thing here is that we are the ones with power at the beginning, and so it is not for us to set the tone. And I feel that true if I'm in meetings with colleagues in hospices or hospitals or other religious institutions, part of the work is kind of trying to help them become aware of the power they have over other people. Even though they don't want to or mean to. It's like again, just like when people are born, we are serving people at their most vulnerable. And so I think you have to go into that interaction really mindful of how you are setting the tone even if you don't mean to.

Carrie: And speaking of setting the tone, how did we get to this place? Did you say 150 years ago? What is the history of this language?

Poppy: It's sketchy, it's so sketchy and it's hard. I've tried to pin it down and no doubt if I went and buried myself in the British Library for three years I would find out and I haven't done that yet.

Carrie: You should hire an Electrographer to help you with that.

Megan: Totally.

Poppy: I was like that sounds like a fun project. It would be so fascinating as my work ambles on, I hope I'll find out more. So what we do know is one is that this language disposal has certainly been used for the last hundred years in UK law. My guess is that it probably emerged from the kind of 19th century-like times when in the UK populations were exploding massive, kind of overcrowding in the cities, overcrowding in the cemeteries, and plagues and cholera. And I think times where we probably went from thinking of death as something that was happening in the family to something that was happening in society and had to be handled in a kind of mass way. And that's the way the language is framed now that it is about a kind of societal responsibility to dispose of the dead safely. So I think that's where the kind of disposal language has come from when it comes to euphemism. I think you would be able to track euphemisms alongside our transition from thinking of death as something that happens often at all ages in every family to something that now feels like a sort of medical failure. Obviously, it happens to all of us but in all of the languages, it's not just around death, around kind of saving a life or battles with cancer and not picking on those words because again, if they work for your family, then they work for your family. 

But we do now talk about death as if we failed that person and I think euphemisms must be correlated with that. As you've said, the more we distance ourselves from it being part of life. I did a little bit of googling today. I don't know if these are euphemisms, you guys use, but like shuffle off this mortal coil is from Hamlet, I don't know that Shakespeare meant that as a euphemism. Probably more like poetry. There are phrases, aren't there? Like meet your maker which I assume have kind of biblical origins, pushing up the daisies is another. There are all of these euphemisms that probably started in, like, lovely creative phrases and we've used them to save us from actually having to say what's actually happened. So, again, I'm not against poetry, I'm not against finding beautiful, creative, flexible ways of describing one's experience. But it's when we use those words because we're so scared, like, we'll jinx ourselves if we say the actual word and I hear it. I mean, obviously, I'm tuned in now. But when a celebrity dies or something in the UK, it's so common for the headline to be about sort of past or if you hear news readers using language to try and explain that someone's died, you hear them stumbling and fumbling around it like, me, say the D word every now and then, you see the word died, and you almost want to be like, yeah, well, yeah.

Carrie: I don't think it's as common in North America. I think we use dead much more frequently, at least in headlines.

Megan: You have something called the Dead Good Words manifesto. Will you tell us about that?

Poppy: Yeah, there are so many words. It was really hard to come up with the top eight.

Carrie: Yeah.

Poppy: But we felt when you care so passionately about something and you're trying to raise awareness, you don't want to fall down your own belly button, you want to kind of pick on the words that you think people are going to resonate with the most. So we pulled together the kind of eight words or phrases that we felt were most impactful and just created a manifesto for change. So it's about raising awareness of those eight words or phrases and then suggesting alternatives that sound so obvious. So disposal is the kind of headline, it feels like, surely no one thinks we should be talking about disposing of our dead people. 

Megan: Right.

Poppy: And obviously you can replace that with burial or cremation or at Poppy's Week, we use the word reposal, which we really like. So we're kind of trialing it just a whole new word which may or may not take off. But we wanted to prove that it was possible to come up with a new word. And then there are phrases there that are very much based on our world. So removal is one which is when someone is collected after they've died and viewing is another. So in the UK, anyway, people talk about funeral directors know when you come and view your mum and a sense that we have of like, you don't view your mum, you view a prospective property or you view an artwork, your mum is still a person after she dies, so we talk about coming to visit your mum. It's all about humanizing the words with the intention to humanize the experience. We don't want you to feel you are doing business with us, we want to feel like you are having an experience with your mum.

Megan: So interesting. I never would have thought of viewing as being dehumanizing. But you're right, it is.

Carrie: Yeah. It's like being at a museum. 

Poppy: It's an object. You view an inanimate object for sure. No relation all the way through to kind of in the UK, embalming is sometimes called hygienic treatment because embalming is such an invasive and toxic procedure that is right for some people. But think in the UK there aren't exact statistics, but it's believed that between 30% to 40% of people are embalmed. At Poppies, we embalm less than 1% of people and I think that's just because we tell people what it is and ask them if they want it and they mostly say no, whereas I think other funeral directors are saying, this is why you should have it.

Megan: Yeah.

Poppy: They're just like saving a lot of people from having to go through that process and then through to euphemisms like so we picked on loved one, which is a bit provocative because it's a structured, widely used phrase in the UK. Not just around death. So, again, in the media, loved one is like the safe term to describe everybody in relation to the person who's died. But it started to be used now just if something happens to someone, the media will talk about their loved ones. And the thing that we're sort of calling out is just this kind of not everybody is a loved one for lots of reasons. So we work with families on a relatively regular basis who are stepping up to arrange the funeral of someone who they have been estranged from for 30 years and had a really complicated relationship with, but like an incredible citizen or like an incredible child, they are taking responsibility and doing it. So we're kind of like fighting for them a little bit. And then on the other side, just feeling like if I died, I hope I'm not just a loved one. People I really am closely in a relationship with, I way more than just love them.

Megan: Yeah. You're poppy. Right.

Poppy: I feel all the feels towards them. And some of this is a little bit playful too, that it's about saying when we kind of use this very flat, safe language, we kind of minimize people's experience and that's a shame.

Megan: So I'm thinking loved ones can be both parties. And so it's like I said, like, you're Poppy. I'm Megan. Carrie is Carrie. I would think that certainly, I would still want to be Megan after I die.

Poppy: Totally. And in the UK at least, so the dead person is the deceased and the family and friends are loved ones we don't like any of know. My sense is, like, I'm Poppy, and I always sort of slightly joke, like, how many people are we caring for in our mortuary that we can't remember their names, right? Like, if my kid's primary school teacher can remember the names of the kids in her class, we should be able to remember the names of the people in our mortuary or at least have them on a name band or have a way of thinking of them as Mr. this or Tom or whatever their name is. And the same with loved ones. So if you want to find a phrase to describe everyone, then I would go for, like, friends and family or community or words that consider them to be people, not these kinds of, like, loved one is just like, look, loved one boxed off, loved one boxed off. It just doesn't feel human.

Carrie: I like community.

Megan: They're a community. That's probably the safest one because you're not making any judgment about how you're in the community with each other. 

Carrie: How would you want your rituals to go?

Poppy: Yeah, such a good question. And changing all the time.

Megan: Okay, cool.

Poppy: I mean, I think one of the really incredible privileges of my work is like, you get to walk alongside people at this time in their lives. You see families completely at war with each other. And it can be that death creates these kinds of I don't think it's the death that creates it, but I think death can be the catalyst for something that's probably been brewing for a very long time. Everybody's, like, tired and emotional, but also the other way around, like, watching communities take care of each other so beautifully in the wake of a death. And so I think I've learned a lot from other people. So I used to think that I wanted to be cremated because I like the idea of I like fire. I like the idea of being kind of reduced to not much. And I grew up by the seaside and I like the idea of having my ashes scattered in the sea. As I have understood more about climate change and the planet wanting to leave a positive legacy and understanding that ashes are quite alkaline and totally inert, it doesn't feel any more like something that I would want. 

So I'm taken by two ideas one is natural burial, just the idea of being buried on a piece of land. So sometimes natural burial grounds will be meadows or woodlands, but the whole idea is you're put underground and there is no maintenance of the land. So it might be like a wildflower Meadow or it might be a place where sheep graze, but the land is not being upkept with a memorial for me. But I also love this new choice that is taking America by storm called natural organic production or human composting. I think there are seven states now in the US where it's legal and Seattle is where it's being practiced, but where the body is turned to soil. That is not currently an option for me because we don't practice that yet in the UK, but that would be very cool, too, because it produces nutrient-rich soil that the earth could use. And then when it comes to the ceremony, I feel like I would really want my friends and family to do what they needed to do in the moment. Because, again, I think I've seen that from working with families, that it depends hugely on what are the circumstances, 10 years ago, I had a husband, now I have three small children. What my family would think now has really changed. If I die at, like, 110 and there's no one left, it's like, feel free to just put me in the ground. Like, no pressure.

Megan: Right. Absolutely. 

Poppy: No pressure for anyone to bust in and come. But I believe in the power of ritual, so I love a bit of singing, love a bit of dancing, and eating. Any way that my funeral can help you process these emotions or past emotions, then I would love that.

Carrie: You've used the word ritual. Why is it important for you to call these things rituals?

Poppy: Because I think if we don't think of it as a ritual, we risk thinking that we're at our school assembly and kind of like going through the motions. Funerals that I've been to where I felt like needs were not met have been funerals where the experience has been dictated by someone's idea of what is proper. And I don't use the word again I want to be really careful not to be judgmental of, like, a really traditional, perhaps religious funeral that is, meeting people's needs is the most powerful funeral that you could have in that instant. I'm not critical of tradition, I'm critical of lazy, repetitive actions that meet no one's needs. And sometimes those going through the motions let's call them traditions, can actually do harm. Because if you've turned up somewhere to feel close to and remember someone you love deeply and what you experience is a complete whitewash of who they were. It may have been better for you not to have gone. It may have been better for you to have stayed at home with some photos and a candle and some music that, you know, they loved and felt close to them that way. So I'm really worried about any ritual that actually is kind of akin to, I've got all these things in my head, like, when you want to go traveling in India and you have to go to the passport office, and then you have to go and get your visa and kind of standing in line and waiting and then you get the stamp, and then you get to go and it's like, sometimes I feel like we're standing in line and getting the stamp, but we're not getting to go.

Megan: Yeah, the bureaucratic part.

Poppy: Yeah, bureaucratic part. Or just a sense of what is expected of me, and particularly if it's a loss that's really significant to you, you might need something specific. And I think I use the word ritual really loosely because I think a ritual is having a cup of tea every morning and sitting on your patio. I think a ritual is always wanting to pick up your kids on a Friday and going for ice cream. And I guess that's the thing that I'm trying to help the communities that we support recognize is like, we're not wishing you to have necessarily a religious experience or a spiritual experience. But if there's a small part of you that would like to come and paint your mum's nails, or if you want to organize it so that on Friday at seven or at midday, when the cremation is taking place, everyone in your community is lighting a candle. And you know that's happening. And that's really powerful for you. I just think in the rush to kind of get the paperwork done and pay the bill that we just might risk missing the most important bit. And we know this is true, right? We know this is true from other points in our life. Like, it's that whole bridezilla wedding thing, right? There's a danger that you're so obsessed with the flowers and the photos and the kind of chair covers and it's like, hang on, I thought today was about love and connection. It's no different. It's just like, don't miss this chance to get what you want and need from this experience.

Carrie: That's also lovely.

Megan: It's so lovely because I'm thinking so much of the experiences I've had around death and dying have been like institutional muscle memory, where it's like, basically going through what people expect. And my grandma's funeral, I was 15 and she was very important to me. The whole there is this religious leader who is at the grave site where she's going to be buried, and he doesn't even know who she is. I was like, Why are we going through why? And then it was a little bit windy and the paper that he was holding that had any information about her blew out of his hand and went into the grave. And so then he had nothing to say. So this is the moment where I was like, this is not something that I need or want. And then there are people who needed it and said, oh, that's Pauline, and she made the wind do that and she's being funny. And I was like, that's not how I see this and that's not what I need to say or feel. And so that was my experience. And I think having that experience that didn't feel like a good ritual for me made me realize that I want better rituals.

Poppy: Thank you for sharing that experience because I think it's really not that specific experience, but I think that feeling of being a little bit shortchanged by what's the norm is really familiar to people and I think there's another voice in our head that's like, shush, suck it up, and everyone else seems fine. And I think the thing that we're trying to kind of open people's minds about is like, everybody's needs can be met in different ways. So I'm thinking of families we've supported where there have been factions or parts of the family who have needed that really formal, historic set of moments. So then the question becomes, okay, we got to do that, but is there a way for the other people to get what they need, too? And fabulous experiences of like, okay, so the day is going to be this big formal marching thing the day before how about everybody comes in their jeans with their pens and paper and writes letters to go in the coffin? There are ways of having everybody's needs met. And it is kind of on funeral directors to get a bit more thoughtful and creative about why they exist, that they are not there to kind of like, lug around the dead. They are there to help people facilitate meaningful moments.

Carrie: Yeah. Your job is really about the living.

Poppy: It should be.  I mean, it should be about my sense is, like, again, because I have young children, I'm just, like, awash with parallels, so forgive me, but it's like. I do think there's something really reassuring about knowing that my kids are being cared for. Well, I know they're alive, but it's the same. I still want the same for my mum. So we take care of the dead beautifully in service to the living, and we also help the living experience ceremonies and rituals that serve them too. So think great care for both serves the living.

Megan: Poppy, you make me wish that there were Poppies in the US.

Carrie: Well, there probably are. You just don't have this experience.

Megan: Yeah, because I would want to talk to someone like you and be like, how can I make this experience more artistic? I would want it to be like that letter-writing thing, like something like that. That's really neat. And I think of like I'm also Mexican American. I'm thinking about Martha, like how beautiful and colorful and how important the flowers are and what they represent, all these things. And I would want it to be more colorful and beautiful and something like having all their favorite things and this kind of thing.

Poppy: And I think that's a really good thing that you've raised because I think back to that thing we were saying at the beginning about how sometimes traditions that we think have been around for a million years are actually quite recent. It's actually very recent in our history that we've been caring for the dead and grieving people in this kind of, like, mechanized, industrial way that if you look at pagan, Christian, all religions, for all of us, our ancestors had annual festivals days to feel close to the dead. Whether that be de las Muertos or Halloween or All Hallows Day or Sauene Is something that pagans practiced in the West. So there are all these historic opportunities to look at death, reflect on death, and feel close to your dead ancestors that had nothing to do with fake blood or scary it was about communing with your family and your community. It's actually a very recent and fingers crossed, short-lived stage in our evolution where we are sort of treating the dead like waste to be disposed of.

Megan: Right, well, that's a really beautiful place to end, I think. But did you have one last message for our listeners?

Carrie: What do you hope they would take away from our conversation?

Poppy: I hope the conversation has conveyed what I strongly feel, which is that by talking about death and dying with gentleness and compassion for other people and for yourself, you can live a much richer life. Engaging with this subject is about acknowledging that our lives are finite and they are a fantastic opportunity to be on the planet and to be good to one another and not to be afraid of using death as a lens to living a richer life.

Megan: That's also beautiful.

Carrie: Oh, my goodness. I mean, I know that you're experienced in talking about these things, but still gives me chills.

Poppy: I've loved it. Thank you for having me.

Carrie: Thank you.

Megan: This has been a beautiful conversation. 

Carrie: And I appreciate it.

Megan: I'm glad you found your calling because I really feel you have.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely.

Megan: Thank goodness. 

Poppy: And the last thing is, just check us out. So we're on social media at Poppy's Funerals, and the website is Poppy'sfunals.Co.UK. There's lots of information on both the work that we do and the kind of campaigns we run, so I'd love people to check.

Carrie: And you have a blog. What is it called? 

Poppy: It's called Talking Death. It is a really good read. It ranges from how to keep your dead person at home after they die, like super practical stuff all the way to the history of Rastafarian funerals. And it's really kind of varied and interesting. So, please check it out, too.

Megan: Yeah, I really appreciated looking at that last night, too. Going to go back and look at more

Carrie: Very cool.

Megan: Thank you so much and we always live our- Did you hear me, Carrie? I said we always live. 

Carrie: Yes. There you go.

Megan: We always leave our listeners with one final message. Don't be an asshole.

Carrie: Don't be an asshole. The Vocal Fries Podcast is produced by me, Carrie Gillon. Theme music by Nick Granham You can find us on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at Vocalfriespod. You can email us at vocalfriespod@gmail.com. And our website is vocalfriespod.com.