Talking Tamarra

Carrie and Megan talk with Dr Felicity Meakins, Professor of Linguistics at the University of Queensland, and Briony Barr, a visual-conceptual-teaching artist and co-founder of the Scale Free Network, about their book Tamarra: A Story of Termites on Gurindji Territory, why termites are important to Gurindji people, and why they wanted to work on this project.

• Ken knows how to f

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Chapters

• 7:35 Interview with Felicity and Briony

Transcript

Carrie Gillon: Hi, welcome to the Vocal Fries Podcast, the podcast about linguistic discrimination. 

Megan Figueroa: I'm Megan Figueroa.

Carrie: And I'm Carrie Gillon.

Megan: Hey, here we are.

Carrie: Hey. Here we are.

Megan: And we have an episode about termites. [crosstalk] Do you ever think that I would say that?

Carrie: Oh my goodness. No, I did not. 

Megan: How it would be related to what we do and yet we find a way.

Carrie: Mm-hmm. We sure do. 

Megan: Yeah.

Carrie: Yeah. I just saw the book being announced on Facebook and I thought, "Wait, we have to talk about this."

Megan: Yeah, that's what we have for you all today. But...

Carrie: Before that, let's talk a little bit... This is actually over a month old, this article, but it's about something that just came out. So, I feel a little okay about it. 

Megan: Yeah.

Carrie: So, in The Hollywood Reporter, they talk about the Barbie poster, the French Barbie poster.

Megan: Okay

Carrie: There's a raunchy pun in the French version.

Megan: On the poster?

Carrie: On the poster. So, in English, it's, "She's everything. He's just Ken." So, in French, "[foreign words]." She's everything, or she can do everything. Louis[?] says, "[foreign words], Ken," whatever. He's just Ken. But in Verlan slang, it means, Louis says, "[foreign words], Ken." Say can be c'est, he is, and sait, S-A-I-T, he knows how to. So, Ken is the Verlan version of [inaudible], to fuck. Because in Verlan, you flip the sound, so [inaudible] becomes Kene or Quene, it's Q-U-E-N-E, K-E-N-E, or just Ken, K-E-N.

Megan: But that's amazing.

Carrie: So, he's just Ken, or he knows how to fuck.

Megan: So, "She's everything."

Carrie: He knows how to fuck. 

Megan: Yeah. 

Carrie: Or he fucks.

Megan: Or he fucks. Which I wonder in their slang can that mean... Because when I hear, he fucks, it doesn't have to be like... Right?

Carrie: No. I think it's literally, like...

Megan: Okay. It's literal?

Carrie: Yeah, I think, to my understanding, my limited understanding of what's going on here. 

Megan: So, is this a situation where people would have known what was being done, or it's like just so specific to this region?

Carrie: Oh, no, no, no. So, according to a French marketing executive from a competing studio, "It's definitely deliberate. There's no way a French speaker wouldn't have noticed the dirty pun." It's sort of genius really that they slip that in.

Megan: But they slipped that in.

Carrie: Nice.

Megan: Nice.

Carrie: Warner Brothers at least at this point refused to confirm or deny whether the raunchy pun was deliberate or accidental. But come on, there's no way.

Megan: So, they say a French speaker, so you don't have to be a speaker of the specific dialect of French. 

Carrie: Well, it's not a dialect, it's a code. It's kind of like Pig Latin, sort of. I mean it's better than Pig Latin, but people know it. 

Megan: Okay. So, right when you said it, that the French speakers among us would have known, do you have to see it written?

Carrie: I probably mangled the pronunciation, so I don't know.

Megan: Okay. Well, let's give you more credit.

Carrie: The Ken part, I don't know how to say Ken. I'll probably[?] say it like that. I don't know how it would be pronounced.

Megan: But it's like an auditory thing. Like you can hear the pun. It's just not something you just have to see written?

Carrie: Yeah, if you pronounce it correctly, yes. 

Megan: Okay. 

Carrie: I just don't think I pronounced it correctly. 

Megan: Oh, well, I believe in you, but I don't know any French at all except for au revoir. Oh my God, how do you say hello? Oh, bonjour. There you go.

Carrie: Salut.

Megan: Salut. Oh, okay. That's kind of like Salud in Spanish. So, cheers?

Carrie: Mm-hmm.

Megan: Yes, I'm sure there's a lot like that. 

Carrie: Yeah. And adieu.

Megan: Like goodbye? Okay. 

Carrie: To God.

Megan: To God? Oh, okay. Like adios. Okay, got it. 

Carrie: Yeah, it's the same. 

Megan: Yeah, it is. Well, that's amazing. I like that better than the English version. 

Carrie: Well, English version is good, I think.

Megan: It's good. 

Carrie: I haven't seen the review yet. But from what I've read about it, it totally makes sense. 

Megan: Yes, it's a great [inaudible]. 

Carrie: Yeah, but then in French, it's just cheeky, fun.

Megan: I mean, how do you not allow that to happen[?]? How do you not do it? It's right there. It's just seems they had to change it quite a bit from the English meaning, to get something different so that it's not the pun. Do you know how much it would have to change? 

Carrie: I don't know how to say it other than the way that they did it. 

Megan: Right. 

Carrie: But that's just me not knowing enough French. Like that is the way you would say it. That's my understanding.

Megan: So, to keep up the original English, I mean, a good translator. 

Carrie: But a good translator would also be like, "Hmm, this is dirty." 

Megan: Yeah. Oh, it's amazing. And it's all about like a child's toy, ultimately.

Carrie: Oh, here they're saying, Ken[?] is slang for [inaudible] common parlance for anyone under 30. But since this slang first came up in the '80s, I'm like, wouldn't you be older than 30 and still know it? Anyway, I thought that was a fun thing.

Megan: I love that, and it makes me even more excited to see it, which I hope I see it soon. 

Carrie: Me too. Me too.

Megan: Sorry, I'm just thinking about Ryan Gosling.

Carrie: The Gos[?]. 

Megan: Yes, the Gos, as the Ken that fucks. Oh, it's hilarious.

Carrie: Yeah, that is hilarious.

Megan: It is. Bleach blond hair? Yeah, I would definitely say Ken fucks, for sure. 

Carrie: I mean, when Gosling showed up in his pink suit...

Megan: I know.

Carrie: ...I was like, I need to find me a man who can pull off that, who's not afraid to wear that because holy fuck, it looked incredible.

Megan: So good. So good. Yeah, I had the same thought and also, could I pull that off? I was like, I want both. I want both worlds. I thought it was an amazing suit. It is an amazing suit. 

[music]

Carrie: All right. So, I'm really excited. We have two guests today. I have Dr. Felicity Meakins, who's a professor of linguistics in the School of Languages and Cultures, a fellow in the Academy for Social Sciences Australia, a fellow of the Australian Academy of Humanities and a member of the ARC College of Expert. She's also the author and co-author of a bunch of books, including Case-Marking in Contact. But most importantly, the book we're going to be talking about today, which I'll say it in a minute. We also have Briony Barr, who is a conceptual artist working at the intersection of artistic process and scientific methodology through rule-based drawing, participatory installation, and workshops. Her work explores emergence and pattern formation, driving inspiration from complex adaptive systems, sociology, and relational aesthetics and is the co-founder of the Art Science Collective Scale Free Network and an honorary fellow of the University of Melbourne School of Physics. So, welcome. We're here to talk about Tamarra: A Story of Termites on Gurindji Country. Did I say that right? 

Felicity Meakins: So, Tamarra is the way to say it. My understanding is yet like a Da, so Tamarra, Gurindji Country. 

Carrie: Okay, Tamarra, Gurindji Country. Okay. Tamarra.

Felicity: Exactly. And actually, the mispronunciation is something that we knew is always the case when you're working with different languages. So, one of the things that we've done with this book is we have a QR code in the front in the shape of a termite mound, which I guess, we'll talk about shortly. But you can link to, and it has the pronunciation of the name of the book and also lots of the keywords in the book, so people who are interested in it can actually sort of follow up on the pronunciation guide.

Carrie: That is great. 

Megan: Oh, that's amazing. Briony, did you make the QR code? Are you like in control of all of like the aesthetics of this book?

Briony Barr: No, not at all. I'm one of many people who have worked on this book. There's been more than 30 people working on the book. And the QR code, actually the shape of the QR code was originally made by one of the Gurindji kid students that we worked with out here, part of the project.

Carrie: I love that.

Briony: But it was morphed into a QR code to access the audio version of the story, as Felicity said. 

Carrie: That's great. 

Megan: That's amazing. We have to keep adapting to new technology, right? And that's a really beautiful way to adapt [inaudible]. 

Carrie: Yeah, in my day job, we end up asking a lot of people to use QR codes, so that people can hear the pronunciation because there's a lot of symbols that are used that are just not in English at all.

Felicity: Yeah, you can think of it as a sort of high-tech version of one of those books that we used to read as kids, where they'd sort of [inaudible] and they'd say, "Turn the page," and then you'll be able to [inaudible] to them. 

Carrie: Oh my God, you just unlocked a memory of mine. Oh my God! I was obsessed with the Disney Robinhood with the fox who also I had a crush on, which is a whole other conversation. Anyway...

Megan: Yeah, it was the foxy fox.

Carrie: So, why did you want to write this book? 

Felicity: Well, I think there was a shared interest in termites. So, termites are really important part of the ecosystem here in Gurindji Country in remote Northern Territory of Australia. I think there was some of us, the Western science sort of side of coming from a point of view of looking at the role of termites in this of wider ecosystem, and how they eat spinifex, and how they digest spinifex, and how they bring protein to the ecosystem and feed other animals. But more importantly, and why we're here specifically is Gurindji people use termite mound, this very large in termite mound shapes, that material as bush medicine, a very important bush medicine. And as a treatment for children, that all children go through, or Gurindji children go through. So, there was just this shared interest in the topic of termites and the different meaning, and role depending on how you look at them. 

Carrie: So, what is spinifex?

Felicity: Spinifex is a spiky... It reminds me of something in a Dr. Seuss' book, actually. It's a very spiky plant that has very long needle-like leaves, and it's all over the desert here.

Carrie: Really cool. Never heard of that before.

Megan: Is it a succulent or a cactus?

Felicity: No, I don't think so. But it's very hard to digest. Hardly anything can eat it, but termites can, and they can turn that into the nutrition that they need, that then makes themselves quite nutritious. 

Megan: What are termites? Let's just go back to that.

Felicity: Yeah, sure. So, termites evolve from cockroaches. I think something like 100 and I'm going to say, 180 million years ago, which doesn't do much for their reputation. 

Briony: 

Carrie: No. Right. 

Felicity: So, they're not ants. They often get called white ants and some eat wood, which is a lot of people know termites as eating wood and sort of hate them because of that. Because people's home [inaudible]. But yeah, they're not ants. They evolved from cockroaches. And they're actually sort of mortal enemies of ant, so often there's battles going on there. 

Carrie: Well, you say cockroaches, and I've gone through this process of getting closer to nature, and I'm like, "Oh, I hate cockroaches. I wish they didn't exist." And then I'm like, "Dang it, that's not true." And I even got a good example of why today. So, I was outside, watering. I saw a lizard chasing a cockroach, and so I saw it, like actually get the cockroach off of the fence and throw it down. And then, like, go down and go chase it. I'm like, it's feeding these lizards part of the ecosystem. 

Briony: Yeah. And I think that was part of the motivation of the project actually is as with cockroaches, termites have got a pretty bad rep, at least with non-indigenous people and certainly members of the project in the community. Gurindji people were really wanting to show the other side of termites and their importance to this children's bush medicine practice, where heated termite mounds applied to children's bodies, and it helps them grow and go through different sorts of developmental stages. So, the idea was to bring together sort of Western science side and Indigenous ecological knowledge and show a different side to termites.

Carrie: Speaking of that, what is your favorite fact about termites?

Felicity: There's so many good ones but they can't hear or see, so they manage to do everything just through senses and their pheromones. They can dig tunnels. They've been known to dig tunnels up to 80 meters deep. [inaudible] that is in feet, but that's very deep unto the water table. I think this is the height of the Statue of Liberty, right? 

Carrie: Is that right? Okay. 

Felicity: Something around that., yeah 

Megan: Yeah, that is amazing. 

Briony: One of the nice things about termites is they make three different kinds of feces. 

Felicity: Four different kinds. 

Briony: Four different kinds. Sorry. 

Carrie: Oh.

Felicity: Yeah. Some of them are used to feed their young. Some of them are used to make the termite mounds insulation, but an incredibly efficient little recycling mechanism going on there.

 Carrie: Yeah, we can learn a lot from that.

Felicity: And like all animals, they have microbes in their gut. And that is what allows them to take this sort of very difficult cellulose of this spinifex and turn it into something that they can actually live off. So, they're one of very few creatures that could do that and that's all about their microbes. And that's true of humans or any animal, but they just have a particular set that allow them to really use spinifex to its highest possibility. 

Carrie: Well, that reminds me of the Koalas and their ability to eat eucalyptus. 

Felicity: Yeah. 

Carrie: So, they use their feces to make the mounds? 

Felicity: Yeah.

Carrie: What other material? Do they use the dirt around?

Felicity: Yeah, the soil is part of it and the water that they're bringing up from the water table that can be up to 80 meters down as well, they also bring that up in their cheeks.

Carrie: Oh my goodness. I never really thought about little termite cheeks before 

Megan: That's adorable. 

Carrie: They're cute. 

Megan: I'm imagining a squirrel, like a squirrel cheeks. 

Carrie: I do imagine that as well.

Megan: But on termites.

Felicity: So, aren't you starting to feel better about termites? 

Megan: Yes, and my partner. I'm learning some of this from him too because he will not kill a thing. We always release insects back instead of killing them when they're in our house. And we currently do have a bit of a termite issue. It wasn't even making me mad. I was just like, yeah.

Carrie: Oh, it's just more scary because like if your house can fall down.

Megan: Our house is mostly Adobe, so it's not bad. But yes, it could be scary for some people. I totally get that. But it was just like, yeah. I mean... Every time I see like "weeds" growing through cracks of concrete and stuff that we've made, I'm just like they were here first. Everything was here first.

Felicity: Well, most of it, but not all the weeds were there before. 

Carrie: Yes. 

Megan: I like it when I see nature winning, since we're going through this global climate change situation. I wonder, is there any way that termites are kind of helping in that area? What kind of resourcefulness of termites are helping with human resourcefulness?

Felicity: I guess what I can say about termites is that they are playing an important role recycling in the deserts, the dead material. So, spinifex is everywhere and when it dies, the termites are taking it and recycling it and building their mounds. And then their bodies are feeding other animals in the ecosystem. And in the dry environment of the desert, there're no fungi or there's not really fungi in the same way. So, fungi are often doing that recycling role. So, termites are playing an important role there.

Megan: I finally look them up, spinifex, and so it's a grass. But I wonder if you had fun, like making this, like your artistic brain or looking at spinifex and make it into art because I feel like there's a lot of potential there. 

Briony: Yeah. No, definitely. I was involved in some of the art making, but there was a lot of artists involved in making the illustrations. There are definitely some depictions of the spinifex from above. You often see that in indigenous art and there's sort of, yeah, these cool fuzzy, circular shapes. They're depicted in a lot of different ways actually in the book, depending on the artist. And some of the paintings were made by individual artists and some of them were made collaboratively in groups of two and even though was one very large painting, that was made by about 16 people working together. 

Carrie: Oh, wow. That's really cool. 

Felicity: Yes, that was a 2 by 3-meter canvas, and that was depicting the process of collecting bush medicine, termite mound, the Tamarra to treat newborn babies when they come home to grow them up. 

Megan: Is it anti-inflammatory, antiseptic?

Felicity: Gurindji people, so they baked the termite mound on the fire, and they mash it down into a paste and paste it over the children's bodies and leave it there overnight. It's a mix of the Tamarra, so the termite mound, and also a kind of [inaudible], which is called [inaudible] in the Gurindji language. And it's used to strengthen bones, for instance, to close the Fontanell, which [inaudible] the plates on the top of the skull. 

Carrie: Wow.

Felicity: Children go through different developmental stages, like crawling and walking, and that sort of thing. So, it's considered to be something that strengthens the skeleton and also to spread the baby in connecting them to the country. 

Briony: And there's a strong clay component of Tamarra, the termite mound. And I know that sometimes, the termite mound is used to help with diarrhea or something like that and that's common in other people have used clay in that way as well.

Megan: Yeah, clay is important in a lot of cultures. 

Felicity: Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie: I'm in a dry desert as well. 

Felicity: Yeah, [inaudible].

Carrie: So, when it dries, it is. But I don't know if anyone's ever like done a clay mask on their face or something. But I can see how it's [inaudible]... Yeah.

Briony: And the termite mound, I know, is sometimes used in other ways like to make the floor. I know Leah talked about making some kind of... Anyway, it's very hard. And when there's fire, the termite mound remains intact. You do see the termite mounds still absolutely standing. I can't speak to whether the termites are fine within that, but termite mounds are absolutely still standing. 

Felicity: They use of it to make floors with something that early colonists did, so they'd make floors and actually tennis courts, and that sort of thing. Practice is not really upheld by Gurindji people because of the way that the nests actually get destroyed. It was an earlier practice. 

Megan: I know, we've kind of like gotten into it a bit. But what is the significance of termites to the indigenous peoples of Australia? 

Felicity: Yes, so the particularly in this area of Australia, so in Central Australia, the use of termite mounds, there are dreaming[?], so people do have spiritual connections to them, but they also have this really practical use in bush medicine. So, when babies come home from hospitals and at different developmental stages, like as they're beginning to crawl or walk, they get a paste of this termite mound put on them with other bush medicines that help their skeletal growth and that sort of thing. Briony was also saying that it gets used to treat [inaudible] which is diarrhea. And if people got limb injuries, broken bones, that sort of thing, actually, termite mounds also used to slather on those to help them heal. So, it's a pretty important basis of a lot of bush medicines just really in central Australia not the whole of the continent.

Megan: I'm wondering if someone who's going through some arthritic issues with my hands, do they use it on the hands a lot for this kind of thing when you're aging? I'm just imagining like these usages.

Briony: Yes, there's different kinds of skeletal elements, I guess so yeah, often after acute injuries from an accident and that sort of stuff as well. But its main use is with children and aiding their developmental stages. So, one of the sort of interesting ones is closing the skull plates, the fontanelle as something that certainly, I think, from a non-indigenous perspective, unless you're a doctor of that sort of thing, we don't tend to think of that as a developmental stage. But it's a really important one where the brain, I guess, is no longer exposed.

Megan: Yeah, you've both have mentioned Western science and indigenous knowledge. I think both of us, obviously, Carrie and I have dealt with these kinds of questions. I should let Carrie because she works with the Squamish peoples. But I've been thinking about it because I also come from a Mexican family and even just our cultural knowledge of different things, it reminds me that I approach science in just a slightly different way even though it's Western within that. But Western versus indigenous, I mean, these are ways of knowing that most western scientists don't even open their minds to. Have you found that to be the case when you've been working in that area?

Briony: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the purposes of the project was to bring together Western science and Indigenous ecological knowledge and not to be opposing those things or for Western science to be proving indigenous ecological knowledge, which is often what people are wanting us to do. But the idea is to create a two-way exchange. That's sort of how it's talked about out here. Other people talk about it as a kind of third space where the sum of those knowledges and bringing those knowledges together is more than just the sum of the parts. I think there's a lot of indigenous ecological knowledge out there that Western science just has no idea about. And we've been talking a lot about this in Australian now, is trying to bring in indigenous ecological knowledge to help with big issues around climate change. So, a lot of indigenous people across Australia have had this practice of, it's called slow-burning, where vegetation is burnt off in a patchwork framework in different ways across the years, which means that you don't have these raging bushfire or the wildfires, I guess you see in North America, where I'd be really slow to the party to really understand actually how indigenous people have been managing the climate in our continent.

Carrie: Yeah, exact same things happening here, the entire continent. Well, at least North America, I can't speak to South America, but North America was managed in exactly the same way. They controlled burns. And then what did we do? We stop doing that when white people showed up, and then now we have these huge fires. We brought that back in the Arizona.

Megan: Oh, no, we've brought it back.

Carrie: Just in general, but there was a long period of time where it was not used at all. In fact, there were cases of indigenous people starting forest fires on purpose to manage it, and then they would be jailed for it. 

Megan: So, speaking of this practice with the termites and the termite mounds, the language that's used to describe these practices. I remember reading Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. She talks about how as the indigenous languages are being overtaken, some of this indigenous knowledge is being lost with it. So, are there like specific ways in the language to talk about termite mounds and termites in these healing practices?

Felicity: Yes. So, one of the things we've done in the book because we're bringing together different knowledge systems is to use Gurindji for the traditional knowledge, the Gurindji knowledge. And we're using Gurindji Kriol which is the new language that's developed here over the last 40 years which combines the traditional language with Kriol, which is an English-based. We're using that in the book to describe the Western science. So, we're actually using the languages to, I guess, talk about old knowledge and new knowledge and to signal those shifts in the books. 

Megan: That's so amazing. How did you come to that? Maybe it seems obvious to you now, but was there a moment where you decided which language is to use, or how to do this?

Felicity: I guess, because we were producing a singular narrative through the book, and the book walks its way through the children's bush medicine practices and then the digestion of termite mound by termites and that sort of thing. And that all comes from Western science. This is something that Western science books that microbes, this sort of thing. We are trying to work out a way to, I guess, yes, signal the different kinds of knowledge systems, but not to do it in a really blunt way and to do it a bit more creatively and that's where we've used the languages to do that. So, that's something that might get a little bit missed with some of the reading audience. But in the book, itself, we've coded the different languages with different colors. And on each page, you can see where the language has come from. So, whether it's English Gurindji or Gurindji Kriol.

Carrie: I love that so much. That's amazing 

Briony: Going back to the termite mound QR code. You can hear the story read in both Gurindji and Gurindji Kriol. That's the one [inaudible] component to it. Because reading it, you read the language, as someone who doesn't speak Gurindji, you read the language and there's only so much you can get from reading it but hearing Violet, for example.

Felicity: Yeah, Violet [inaudible].

Briony: You just learn so much more and feel so much more about the language and how it's communicated. 

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. 

Megan: Me too. Audiobooks are not that new, but I feel like with children's books, it's like a newer thing and even still, it's not that accessible. So, to have a QR code and it takes you to a place where it's just that accessible, that's really lovely. 

Felicity: Yeah. And that's something the community really wanted from the book in sharing their knowledge is also to share language and say, "Our language is still here and we're still speaking." And it felt for them of a sort of way that people can kind of connect with their country. 

Carrie: Yeah. Obviously, it's a more traditional way of sharing the language too, or all way rather than written.

Felicity: Yeah. That's sort of one of the really important aspects of the knowledge system out here, is that language country artistic practice, land-based practices, these things are all part of a singular knowledge system. Whereas it's sort of Western science way, we tend to silo disciplines. So, we have Linguistics, we've got biology, we've got art, all these sorts of separate things like geology, and that sort of thing. We tend to study them as separate disciplines. Whereas, for Gurindji people and much of First Nations people across Australia, these aren't just interdisciplinary. These are a single discipline and a single practice, I guess. And that was one of the things where we try to reflect in the book was bringing together all these different land-based, artistic practices language, all of that together. 

Carrie: Yeah, same thing here.

Megan: I got chills from there.

Carrie: The [inaudible] nation is trying to reclaim education away from Canada. It's a long story but basically, having control over the education of their own children. And one of the things that they want to change is switching to something a more plant-based, but also more project-based where each thing you're learning about. So, let's say you're building a canoe, they're still going to teach you math and physics and all of these other things. 

Megan: Yeah. But then you also get probably some story narrative. You can learn about all of that because you can hear or read about why it's so important to build a canoe and what the canoe can do for you and going on to the water and all this. 

Felicity: Yeah, it's inspiration.

Carrie: Yeah. So, what question do you think we should ask that we just wouldn't even think to ask? Because we're linguists, we're stuck in our silos.

Felicity: About termites?

Carrie: Yeah, I guess this book, the termites, or any process about the book?

Felicity: Yeah, I guess for me the book is bigger than Linguistics.

Carrie: One hundred percent.

Felicity: And I guess for me, as a linguist, it's a challenge to step out of the field methods class. [inaudible] co-authored a field method, it's textbook of course, but to snip it out to field methods class and actually think about how you're documenting a language within a system of knowledge that you're working within. So, stepping out of a sort of linguistic discipline and absolutely go ahead and do the working out what grammatical constructions are grammatical and ungrammatical workout sound systems, [inaudible], that stuff is really important. But also think about what the local community, the local knowledge system that you're working with, what the place of languages within that and try and document language within that system. So, you can make a book about termites. You can, as we've done here, do oral history books, and in doing so, explore really interesting, grammatical constructions. And things will pop up that won't pop up in other contexts. 

And so, actually, in following what communities' aspirations are for their language, ma be they used to document local history, maybe it's to document children's bush medicine practices. Not to be sort of thinking of that as a distraction, but to actually do this work and then think about how you can document language within those practices. So, it's a little bit more than just that classic Nicholas Himmelman distinction, between language description, language documentation, but actually turning language documentation into something that the community believes that language documentation. It's not just what we as, you know I speak for myself as non-indigenous linguists, think that language documentation is.

Carrie: Oh, yeah. I don't do language documentation, but I've always wondered just as someone who looks grammar stuff or has in the past, what do people think or what to linguist think? Where do they think the language is coming from, it's from people. And a lot of times, we asked people to tell stories. And so, it's like, why are you not going further with that? You're missing a lot when you're just trying to get little bits and pieces of it. Because that's like someone's lived experience, someone's knowledge, some beautiful cultural exchange and to lose that as a linguist, I think it's a terrible thing. I do really love like getting rid of the silo type of relationship we have with knowledge as Western scientists tend to have. Social linguists. 

Felicity: Yeah, we do. And actually, to be honest, it just ends up being a lot of fun. I think, as a linguist, it's being trained and field Linguistics and all the rest. They're trying to connect with a local art center in Australia with, with both local indigenous range of groups or different kinds of organizations and actually see how they want to position language within their project work. It means that you can be working with these groups to do what they want to do. And as I said, in doing so, I'm a total grammar geek, so I get really excited when all of a sudden, somebody's telling a really complex, new interesting narrative. But all of a sudden, some grammatical construction pops up that I've never heard before, and I have to quietly hold that enthusiasm in. And then go away and have a little exciting moment to myself.

These things can happen at once, I guess. And I think all of these things do happen at once where you sort of just step out of our sort of idea that all I'm doing is I'm a linguist. I'm here to document language. And I guess the other thing about it is that it means stepping out of your comfort zone. So, I've been working with artists in the community and Briony Barr's been really helping shape this project. We've worked with the microbiologist. Gregory Crocetti, on this project as well. So, as a linguist, I'm constantly stepping out of my comfort zone and bringing in other Western scientists or artists or whatever, have different kinds of expertise. And the community here really responds enthusiastically to that. 

One of the things I notice is when we've been in forensics[?], we've created a [inaudible] hearing. We had a government scientist who helped us with that. People will tell him far more than they'll tell me. And I've asked them about that, and they said, "Well, you don't understand it. You only know language." So, I think in together, different expertise and stepping out of those disciplinary silos. We just document much more. 

Carrie: That's amazing. 

Megan: Absolutely. I love having this conversation because I want more people... Like I'm very much of the opinion and this is kind of siloing, but you can't have science without art and humanities. It's improper in my mind because I feel like if we had had those, we wouldn't have had some of the terrible like race science and eugenics stuff. [inaudible] be so much knowledge. 

Carrie: I don't know. A lot of racist. It will still happen, but I feel like more people would have gotten to... I don't know. They think Western science is science that's subjective. That's not true. That's false. Science is done by humans so it's not as objective as you think. So, I feel like if you remember things like the humanities and things you learn from art and stuff, you would know that. You would know that science can't possibly be as objective as so many people think it is.

Megan: I mean, yes, but I still think that artists and humanities people can be just as racist. 

Carrie: Sure. Oh, absolutely. 

Megan: I don't know if they would have stopped the race science bit. I live in this head sometimes where I'm like, "Luckily, I'm done."

Felicity: I think it's useful, though. You're right to think of science as just another knowledge system, another, I was thinking about kind of paradigm of thinking about knowledge. So, even when we're, for instance, creating datasets. So, for instance, I've written a column recently for the journal, Gurindji Kriol languages, where I've been questioning the way that we construct datasets about Kriol languages in order to say that they're not complex systems and all these debates that go on and Gurindji and Kriol languages. And sort of saying, actually, what we're doing is creating datasets in such a way, and the data that we're selecting that goes in those datasets actually give us the answer that we were asking. And of course, in biological sciences, I do a lot of work with population geneticists and people who work with phylogenetic. There are particular ways of creating datasets which are much more, let's say, objective. And we need to be, I guess, getting up to speed with a lot of those newer biological modeling methods to make sure that we're not just borrowing in a blind way from other disciplines and not learning the mistakes that they've made. Which they've been rectifying, I guess, over the years.

Megan: And if you're asking a certain question, you're asking, and you already thinking all the answer to, you're going to set up your datasets a certain way. It's going to reinforce what you thought you knew. 

Felicity: Yeah. And that's what I think. It's on both sides. It's both the creation of the datasets and then it's also then the interpretation of it. So, we just need to know that we're just operating in another kind of paradigm of knowledge and acknowledge that, that's all. 

Carrie: Yes. Agreed. 

Felicity: I love science. I work with scientists.

Megan: Me too.

Carrie: Me too.

Felicity: So, I'm not dismissing scientists. I'm not dismissing language description, documentation. As I said, I'm a total grammar geek. These disciplines, we're always thinking about what we're doing and improving what we're doing. And I think one of the ways we can do that is to be bringing in indigenous knowledge systems and thinking about how we do science, and how other people do science.

Carrie: We need experts in our fields, but you also need that dialogue and cross pollination, and the collaboration and the open-mindedness to where each other is coming from, and I guess how we learn our different disciplines. I think sometimes very early on, you just go into your specialization and education isn't necessarily structured to think more widely. Whereas something like if you learn arts or humanities or something, I don't think you specialize as quickly. So, sometimes, you're sort of moving between different kinds of knowledge for a bit longer before you sort of land on some true. 

Megan: It's true, yeah. I was going to say too, that my job title is literally research scientist. I am a scientist. I'm not dissing sciences. I just think they have so much knowledge to gain. And I use knowledge that I learned through the Vocal Fries every day in my job. I love taking stuff that I learned from other people, interviewing people. And often, it's not always other linguists. Like we've had poets. I think he would love for us to just call our friend from New Jersey, the construction worker. We've had so many different kinds of people, and I use it as a scientist. And I just love hearing other people talk about knowledge systems. It's like we don't have to call [inaudible], like all of our knowledge and use it for what we do. 

Briony: Yeah, and in the end, it's a lot of fun working with artists, or biologists, working with Gurindji people. It's a lot of fun to really be sort of working out whether you'd sections of knowledge systems are and where you can be building on and different knowledge systems by bringing different kinds of ideas together and that sort of things. So, yeah, it's just fun. 

Megan: Yeah. I'm actually a little bit jealous. Like this looks like such a great project that I wish I could have been a part of. If you could do something like this again, is there another creature or area of interest that you would like to do, another book on, or another kind of project? 

Briony: Well, I guess what that makes me immediately think of is that this project has already given rise to another stage, which is that we are taking that same... Because the termites and the using the termite mound as a treatment is such a rich topic in the so many sorts of ways to think about it. So, we're actually in the process of making a video, which has a stop-motion animated component that's involving as many people in the community as possible. And we're taking the dot painting style, which people often do in this area, and we're turning those dots into sort of three-dimensional form using plasticine.

So, actually, just earlier this week, Felicity and I were working with a bunch of kids in the school and rolling lots of plasticine balls. Showing them the footage that we had shot the last time we were here and the animation that we started developing with artists last time we were here. And then getting people on board to continue the next stage. So, that's actually why we're out here now. So, I think the topic itself and the collaboration between people and thinking about how we want to tell this story and how people want to get this information out into the world and this bush medicine and this ecological knowledge, it sorts of given rise to, I guess, not another book but another creative project.

Carrie: That is so exciting. So, Briony, what other kinds of topics have you worked with? I'm just so interested in your job. 

Briony: Yeah, I guess as an artist, I do you get to do a lot of different things. I do get to create[?] with a lot of different kind of people, which is an amazing thing to be able to do. But I guess my experience particularly with book making and storytelling, prior to this book, I've been involved with this group Scale Free Network for a long time. And working with a microbiologist, we've made quite a lot of stories about microbes and trying to imagine the world from the perspective of this sort of invisible creatures that we're very interdependent with but often don't really acknowledge, also understand and also demonize. I mean, there's a lot of fear, understandably, around bacteria. But the reality is that we're completely interdependent with them and almost all of them are sort of beneficial for our health and environment. 

I've actually worked on four books that are all about symbiotic partnerships with bacteria, and a couple are set in the ocean and a couple are set in the soil. I've also worked on one about viruses as well. Viruses that infect bacteria, that actually, you could say have a symbiotic partnership with animals in a protective role against the bacteria that infect the human. So, there's a little bit of a background there and making stories and sort of imagining the world, I guess, from the perspective of these creatures that we don't often think about but are very important. So, that's definitely for my role in this book. So, both Gregory and I are part of Scale Free Network, brought that experience to this book, but we weren't experts in termites. We knew about the symbiotic partnership that termites have with their own gut microbes, and we knew that was a part of the story. And that is a part of the sequence in the book.

Megan: Is that depicted through art too? 

Briony: Yeah. We worked with some of the artists and some of the kids actually on different paintings to show the process of a termite eating the spinifex, digesting it. And then depicting the gut itself and the different microbes that break down that spinifex. 

Felicity: So, part of that process was actually looking through microscope, [inaudible] bacteria themselves. We had large community meeting where we did this, and we also did this with individual classrooms where the kids could actually see these invisible microbes.

Megan: That's so cool. 

Carrie: Did the kids tend to be trilingual?

Felicity: Yeah, the kids out here, their first language is Gurindji Kriol. It's a mixed language, [inaudible] mixed languages, so it's Gurindji but it's also got this English-based Kriol mixed in it. And then they come to school, and they're in English-only classrooms. They're also hearing the traditional language Gurindji from the older generations around them. And some of the other kids also have a lot of [inaudible], which is a neighboring language, which is a bit stronger than Gurindji in their linguistic repertoire as well. So, the classroom, anything that we've done in the classroom always is being running Gurindji Kriol. So, for the classroom activities where there was art making and looking in microscopes and all that sort of thing, that was run by Briony and also Gregory Crocetti, but also members of the communities. Particularly, Cecilia Edwards was really a key to that. His lessons [inaudible] Gurindji Kriol for them. 

Megan: That's really cool. I'm afraid that, that wouldn't be allowed here in Arizona because of our ridiculous English only.

Carrie: It depends on the school, right? 

Felicity: The school really open to this project and [inaudible] part of the project. 

Briony: And I think running it as an art project, and sort of the artist scientist in residence at the school and also being hosted at Karen County Arts Center, which is this sort of hub of language and culture here. You're just able to - when it's an art project you, can move in different ways.

Carrie: Yeah, you're definitely given more freedom.

Briony: But the school [inaudible].

Megan: I wonder if termites have taught you anything about storytelling. 

Felicity: That's a good question. I mean, I think as always, when you're trying to imagine the world from the perspective of your protagonist, whoever or whatever that is, I think it teaches you something. I mean, just simply imagining the world where you can't see and you can't hear, and you're part of this colony. And each member of the colony is doing their part and also playing a role in the bigger community and ecosystem, it just makes you think about how efficient and how amazing these creatures have evolved to sort of perfectly sit in their ecosystem. And that's a lesson for humans, I think. 

Megan: Yes. 

Briony: In some ways, I guess what they're teaching is about is cooperation. Project itself has been about cooperation. Each person having their role to tell this story, and I guess the termites are cooperative entities. The project has been about cooperation, whether it's between knowledge systems or humans or different kind of skills and expertise. And I guess that's the sort of broader message we're also projecting out there for human society, in a sense. Where it's not all about competition. Sometimes, it's cooperation.

Felicity: Well, there's guides[?]. You need both, you do need competition, but you very much need collaboration and working together. But termites are very much siloed in their individual roles. I mean the queen is always the queen. The defender soldier termites are always in their role. The reproductive [inaudible] termites are very much in their role, so [crosstalk] you know?

Briony: I feel like you're [inaudible].

Felicity: I guess it's not to paint a picture of this sort of utopic, overly romanticized.

Carrie: I'm with you on that. 

Felicity: It is very good.

Carrie: Can you imagine? We go from termites being terrible to all the way over here, where they have the most utopic. Yeah, we don't want to swing too far. We just want to have integrity in our descriptions. Is there anything else you would like to leave our listeners with, like any other messages? 

Briony: Can you buy the book outside of Australia? I don't know.

Felicity: It hasn't even come out yet here in Australia, but it will do. [crosstalk] I don't think [inaudible].

Megan: No, but I do hope if it is, we will definitely, whenever it comes out, share. 

Carrie: Well, we'll share it anyway because either second or third most is Australia of our listeners. 

Megan: We have visited with our guests several times.

Carrie: Visited, yes. Okay, yes. Yeah. So, buy the book especially if you're in Australia, but if not, hopefully, it'll be available at some point. So, yeah, thank you so, so much for coming on to talk about this. I saw the book, and I was like, "That is too pretty not to talk about." 

Megan: Yeah, it is amazing. 

Briony: Well, thanks for your interest in the project. 

Felicity: Thank you so much for having us. 

Carrie: We'll post a picture of the cover. It is gorgeous. But yeah, thank you for being here, and we always leave our listeners with one final message. [crosstalk] Don't be an asshole.

Megan: Don't be an asshole.

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Carrie: The Vocal Fries podcast is produced by me, Carrie Gillon. The music by Nick Granum. You can find us on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram @vocalfriespod. You can email us at vocalfriespod@gmail.com and our website is vocalfriespod.com. 

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